TheAMCForum.com Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > The Garage > Tool Time tool review and eval area
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Vertical Mill
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Click for TheAMCForum Rules / Click for PDF version of Forum Rules
Your donations help keep this valuable resource free and growing. Thank you.

Vertical Mill

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
Author
Message
6PakBee View Drop Down
Supporter of TheAMCForum
Supporter of TheAMCForum
Avatar
Charter Member

Joined: Jul/01/2007
Location: North Dakota
Status: Offline
Points: 5457
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 6PakBee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Vertical Mill
    Posted: Nov/07/2021 at 2:22pm
I am in the market for a vertical mill. Intent is to use it mostly for head work, guides, seats, resurface the face. Have about a $7K budget.

1) Are my goals achievable with a bench mill? I looked on some machinist forums and the negatively was almost pouring out of my monitor.
2) What mill would you recommend? I've looked at a lot of the Chinesium mills (seems that's all there is currently) and the Precision Mathews seems to be a good choice but I am not saying they are the best choice.
3) Used? I've looked at used mills, primarily the Bridgeport Series 1 and for the most part they are hundreds of miles away with no means to load them out IF they are to be found. One that was advertised locally looked like it came from the hold of the Titanic.

What are your thoughts? Do you have any recommendations? Would appreciate any and all comments. I've been called an idiot before so nothing earth-shattering there!
Roger Gazur
1969 'B' Scheme SC/Rambler
1970 RWB 4-spd Machine
1970 Sonic Silver auto AMX

All project cars.

Forum Cockroach
Back to Top
Trader View Drop Down
AMC Addicted
AMC Addicted


Joined: May/15/2018
Location: Ontario
Status: Offline
Points: 6881
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Trader Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov/07/2021 at 9:17pm
Look for a Bridgeport or Bridgeport clone made in Taiwan. The Taiwan machines are much better quality then the Chinese to the point that they can exceed an original Bridgeport knee mill for accuracy.
You need weight for accuracy, floor model. 9x42 will do but a 10x50 allows more room for clamping to the table.
3 to 3.5 HP is fine for any head work.
Watch out for odd tooling. You want something with readily available tooling like a CAT-40 taper holder or R8 (R8 limits you to smaller cutters). We had an NMTB-35 at my old workplace that was almost useless, as we could not get tooling for it.
Budged looks fine but you will likely have to bide your time to find one available.
Good luck!  
Back to Top
PROSTOCKTOM View Drop Down
Supporter of TheAMCForum
Supporter of TheAMCForum
Avatar

Joined: Jun/20/2010
Location: Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 2450
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PROSTOCKTOM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov/08/2021 at 1:11am
Originally posted by 6PakBee 6PakBee wrote:

I am in the market for a vertical mill. Intent is to use it mostly for head work, guides, seats, resurface the face. Have about a $7K budget.

1) Are my goals achievable with a bench mill? I looked on some machinist forums and the negatively was almost pouring out of my monitor.
2) What mill would you recommend? I've looked at a lot of the Chinesium mills (seems that's all there is currently) and the Precision Mathews seems to be a good choice but I am not saying they are the best choice.
3) Used? I've looked at used mills, primarily the Bridgeport Series 1 and for the most part they are hundreds of miles away with no means to load them out IF they are to be found. One that was advertised locally looked like it came from the hold of the Titanic.

What are your thoughts? Do you have any recommendations? Would appreciate any and all comments. I've been called an idiot before so nothing earth-shattering there!
It really depends on what you expect and if you can fully set it up for each operation. I think a benchtop mill would be a dangerous proposition. You need a mill that has some weight to it. A Bridgeport/ Bridgeport type mill is extremely versatile until you start doing compound multiple valve angles that canted valve heads will require. It really depends on what you expect and if you can fully set it up for each operation.  This is where having the right tools and understanding how to set it up comes into play. If you're just doing to do your own projects then swinging the head around and learning how to tram it all back is not that bad. If you do it everyday it's not the idea setup. I have a tool and die degree and have thousands of hours using a Bridgeport, or Bridgeport type mill. I can tell you with much confidence you're probably not going to get a mill setup for CAT40 tooling in your price range. Most mills will have a R8 spindle and swinging a large enough cutter to surface heads is not something I would suggest with a R* spindle. I have used a 5" cutter and it's really more than I should be using in a R8 spindle. I bought a used Hurco knee mill that's really a Clausing Klondike that Hurco had them make. Got it locally for $1200 with a vice and a big box of tooing a few years ago. It's a lot heavier built than a Bridgeport. I like to use this mill for doing what I would call not so clean jobs. Also Cincinnati made some really nice, heavy duty mills that weigh twice what a Bridgeport does. Remember weight is your friend when it comes to precision machinery. As far as moving one you can drag them up on a rollback, or use a wrecker with a wheel lift and boom. When you get it home five 3' pieces of black iron pipe and a large screwdriver is all you need to move it around the shop. Best thing I could tell you is to be patient trying to acquire one. There are mills sitting around all over the place and so long as it's not rusted up just about any of them will easily handle what you're wanting to achieve. In my area a really nice variable speed Bridgeport will cost $3500-$4000. Step pulley machines can be had for less, but I would probably stay away from those unless you want to spend a lot of time switching pulleys and never getting the right speed you need. However if you do happen to buy a step pulley machine you can cheat the speeds a little by using a VFD (Variable Frequency Drive phase converter) Then you alter the Hertz input to speed up or slow down the motor from 0 to around 200 Hertz. Also don't worry if it's a 3-phase machine. A cheap and simple static phase converter is all you need and it's what I use on the Hurco. It cost you very little to buy one. 

Here's the Hurco I bought for the $1200. Just keep looking and asking around your area. One will pop up at the right price. 


Sorry for Dad in the photos. Tongue






What I call dirty milling.







Tom



Edited by PROSTOCKTOM - Nov/09/2021 at 1:34am
Molnar Technologies Full Service Dealer - Crankshafts & Connecting Rods

1969 AMC Rambler Rouge Race Car
1974 AMC Hornet Hatchback, Wally Booth Outlaw Nostalgic Pro Stock Race Car Project
Back to Top
6PakBee View Drop Down
Supporter of TheAMCForum
Supporter of TheAMCForum
Avatar
Charter Member

Joined: Jul/01/2007
Location: North Dakota
Status: Offline
Points: 5457
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote 6PakBee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov/08/2021 at 8:08am
Tom, thanks for the detailed reply.  I appreciate it.  Thumbs Up


Don't worry about Dad in the photos, I wish mine was still around so I could include him in photos.

Roger Gazur
1969 'B' Scheme SC/Rambler
1970 RWB 4-spd Machine
1970 Sonic Silver auto AMX

All project cars.

Forum Cockroach
Back to Top
mbwicz View Drop Down
Supporter of TheAMCForum
Supporter of TheAMCForum


Joined: Feb/20/2019
Location: Buffalo, NY
Status: Offline
Points: 1989
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mbwicz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov/08/2021 at 8:27am
You may wanna check if any machine shops are upgrading their equipment, or have an older machine that they no longer use.  Its a long shot, but they may know someone with a machine that will suit your needs.  Good luck.

Mike

1970 AMX, one step forward, one step back. Both steps cost time and money.
Back to Top
tufcj View Drop Down
Supporter of TheAMCForum
Supporter of TheAMCForum
Avatar
Supporter of TheAMCForum

Joined: Jul/10/2007
Location: Watkins, CO
Status: Offline
Points: 4086
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tufcj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov/08/2021 at 10:00am
I'm sure you've heard of them.  I have a couple of items from https://grizzly.com 
They are Chinese, but quality is good for an occasionally used item.

Bob
tufcj
69 AMX
74 Javelin AMX
67 Rogue

If you need a tool and don't buy it...
you'll eventually pay for it...
and not have it.
Henry Ford
Back to Top
401MATCOUPE View Drop Down
AMC Addicted
AMC Addicted


Joined: May/20/2010
Location: Salisbury, MD
Status: Offline
Points: 5367
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote 401MATCOUPE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov/13/2021 at 4:04pm
Roger,

Alot of good advise here already!!

Here is my best advise after using and repairing so many makes of Vertical Milling Machines over the past 40+ years.  Size matters!!!  Forget the knee mills, pretty useless for any head work...the table movement will just not help your accuracy.  I would personally buy nothing but a Bridgeport Brand machine......I am just not a fan of import clones, newer ones I understand are pretty decent, but parts are always my concern.  You can buy anything for a Bridgeport, they are lots of folks make spares of the common repair parts.  A shop I worked at when I was very young had 3 XLO (Ex-Cell-O) made in Canada, we had so many problems with the head and getting parts was such a problem, we sold all of them and bought used Series 1, Variable Speed Machines.   I literally grew up with a V-Ram Step Pulley Machine with a 9 x 36 table and 9 inch Y axis travel, one shot oiler and no power feeds, Bridgeport Vise.   It was single phase a gently used, from a flood that got up to the table......that machine taught me what to buy and look for when I bought one.....I only wanted to do this once.

I found a Series 1 Variable Speed Machine in the local paper (Baltimore) at a tool shop that was down sizing, still under power.....make sure it it still under power, the heads can be VERY expensive to fix when heavily worn.  It had a 9 x 48 table, 12" Y axis movement, X Axis Power feed, one shot oiler, R-8 Spindle, chrome ways, Kurt Vise with swivel base, 2 large boxes of R-8.....freshly serviced by Bridgeport Field Service with new belts and bushings on the motor drive for $3000 (1995) and best off it is a 1982 model.   The key things you need to look for what tooling comes with it.....just look up what a Kurt D675 vise and swivel base runs these days!!!   R-8 spindle tooling is so versatile, unless you were doing heavy work, stick with R-8, Cat 40 adapters are expensive and so is direct mount tooling.     Even all the hold down tooling based on 5/8" table slots are super inexpensive and will save you tons of money......there is a wide range Bridgeports.....or check out the Brand X, the lack of parts and support on brand X scares me that I wasted money.   I have just about every attachment they made for my Bridgeport, found them over a lot of years at auctions for great prices.....like 2 different head spacers, to get more z axis clearance, horizontal milling attachment for slotting, slab milling, dividing heads (12 and 15") and horizontal tombstones for each, 2 Kurt D675 vises, X and Y Servo Brand Turbo Drives, Z axis digital readout, Acu-Rite Master-MP X-Y Digital Readout, Ball Screws for the X and Y Axis's........I upgraded all drives and digitals as I got more jobs.   BUT if you can get all that on a good machine, you are way ahead.....look up what this stuff costs, some has gone up and some has gone down since I put my machine to its current condition.  The digital read outs are about 1/3 the price they used to be.....

a full up Bridgeport is only 2000#, but you can easily break it down to much lighter chunks and get it home in a few pick up loads or on a car trailer......just get the machine bed down as low as you can and turn the head upside down or at least 90 degrees from vertical.........the bed come off very easy too.  I can send you a copy of the Bridgeport book on set up and such if that helps you.   I brought mine home in the bed of a 92 Ford F-350 Super Duty!!.......no matter what they are still top heavy.

I hope this helps you, you enough budget at $7K to buy a very nice machine.....with some good tooling.
Ross K. Peterson
68X,GoPac,343,AT,52A(1stCar)
68X,GoPac,390,4sp,52A
69X,GoPac,390,4sp,64A
70X,GoPac,390,4sp,87A,8
70X,GoPac,390,4sp,BBO,8
70 Jav SST,390,AT,BSO
74MatX,401,AT,Prototype
74MatX,401,AT
Back to Top
6PakBee View Drop Down
Supporter of TheAMCForum
Supporter of TheAMCForum
Avatar
Charter Member

Joined: Jul/01/2007
Location: North Dakota
Status: Offline
Points: 5457
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 6PakBee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov/13/2021 at 5:09pm
Ross, thanks for your very detailed response.  I am keeping a file of recommendations so I don't have to bother people again.  I do have to question your comment about doing head work on a vertical mill.  Looking at a head only machine like a Peterson or a Kwik Way you'd have about the same investment in a special purpose machine that you would in a general purpose machine.  I just can't see there being that much difference in capability.  For primary head work such as guides and seats, why wouldn't a vertical mill work?  As to head resurfacing, I have read comments all over the map.  Just don't know.

In any event,  I have sat back and reconsidered my priorities.  Right now with winter coming on I don't really want to be running around in inclement weather freezing my nuggies off looking at mills hundreds of miles away.  So I have gone to what was priority #2, a dustless blaster.  I'll pursue that this winter and get back on the mill this summer.

Hope to talk to you at Kenosha next year.  It's been too long.
Roger Gazur
1969 'B' Scheme SC/Rambler
1970 RWB 4-spd Machine
1970 Sonic Silver auto AMX

All project cars.

Forum Cockroach
Back to Top
Hurst390 View Drop Down
AMC Addicted
AMC Addicted
Avatar

Joined: Apr/20/2008
Location: secret
Status: Offline
Points: 5818
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hurst390 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov/14/2021 at 9:01am
Buy a head and guide machine for head work. 
SC/Hurst Rambler

11.62 120

100% Street Legal
Back to Top
6PakBee View Drop Down
Supporter of TheAMCForum
Supporter of TheAMCForum
Avatar
Charter Member

Joined: Jul/01/2007
Location: North Dakota
Status: Offline
Points: 5457
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 6PakBee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov/14/2021 at 11:44am
Originally posted by Hurst390 Hurst390 wrote:

Buy a head and guide machine for head work. 


Okay, what advantage would a head and guide machine have over a vertical mill?  If I look at something like a Peterson TCM-25, other than the fixture for holding a head it looks like a kissing cousin to a bottom of the barrel bench mill.
Roger Gazur
1969 'B' Scheme SC/Rambler
1970 RWB 4-spd Machine
1970 Sonic Silver auto AMX

All project cars.

Forum Cockroach
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.03
Copyright ©2001-2019 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.105 seconds.
All content of this site Copyright © 2018 TheAMCForum unless otherwise noted, all rights reserved.
PROBLEMS LOGGING IN or REGISTERING:
If you have problems logging in or registering, then please contact a Moderator or