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Timing...Ticking...more issues!

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63RumbleRambler View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 63RumbleRambler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Timing...Ticking...more issues!
    Posted: Jan/21/2022 at 2:38pm
Hi guys,

Ok here are the basics:
1963 Classic 196 Iron OHV 2bbl 3spd
New plugs (autolite 437)
Petronix and coil (seem to be working as they should)
New plug wires
I think thats it for this topic...

So again looking for some assistance.  Im starting to get frustrated with this thing...In my last post i had reached out regarding an exhaust leak, trying to figure out this "putt putt" im getting at the beginning of the rpm band when shifting into any gear.  I have fixed the exhaust leak and had the manifold welded at the choke vent entrance and exit.  This solved that issue.

However, the "putt putt" is still there.  Acceleration power is minimal.  Hill climbing power is really bad.  Pedal to the floor, sitting at about 2500 RPMs and struggling to pick up speed.  Now i know these arent performance cars, but the 196 does (or mine did) have some torque with the ability to hill climb just fine.  Not sure whats going on...

1st attempt to solve this:
I was thinking a timing issue.  Found TDC with the valve cover off, watched for both valves to close and looked down the hole to see the piston at its highest point.  Seemed to match up with the TDC markings on the balancer (I have 2 groups of markings...one seems OEM and one seems to be made).  Distributor rotor was pointed at cylinder 1...maybe 3:00 (ish).  BTW I also tried the finger over the plug hole...could not feel the difference really...I think i was getting confused over the compression/exhaust stroke.Confused

Plugged up the vacuum hose and hooked up the timing light.  Waited for the engine to warm up and took a look with the light.  The timing marks kept spinning...

Solution attempt:
I took my paint marker and drew a line across both the inside and outside ring to see if the balancer rings were spinning away from each other.  Nope...still stayed lined up after firing it back up.

Checked the distributor bolt...pretty tight...marked the base and the shaft to see if it moved.  Nope.

Checked plug wire...All good.

Checked the plugs...Ok this was an issue.  2 plugs were loose enough to unscrew by hand.  Now I put these in initially...torqued them to 28 ft lbs.  They are autolite 437s.  I tightened them down...car fired up better, but the timing mark is still spinning.

Im kinda the peak of my knowledge now.  Could this be something as simple as a broken Timing light?  I will pick another one up and try that too. 

Also noticed some ticking...but i think the spark plug tightening may have helped with that.  Not sure if it really matters but i may try my luck on some champion RJ18yc, since advanced actually has them in stock locally.

So timing and "putt putting"...Could getting the timing solve the sluggish nature of this engine or am i looking at some valve issues as well? 

Some other points of note.  Trans/clutch seems ok.  Replaced the gear oil...shifts smoother. 
Carb seems ok...seems to "gurgle" when accelerating...like taking a big gulp of air.

Im gonna take a little break from this...to clear my mind lol.  If you have any questions for needed information, i will try to answer them the best I can in a bit.

Thank you guys!

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tomj View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote tomj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/21/2022 at 9:33pm
Stick with the basics. 

These are mechanical lifter engines, so you will soon need to adjust the valves. THat could be your ticking. And tighten head bolts at that time. But set this aside for now.

These are very, very old engines. 1963 was a very long time ago. Given that age, and use case, we know there's a number of things that fail over time. These aren't flaws, they are just things that "die first".

The harmonic balancer, the crank pulley, is actually made in two pieces, an inner and an outer. Between them is a thin layer of molded-in rubber. They last between 25 and 50 years, then they begin to separate. When this happens, the timing mark moves, because the outer part happens to be the pulley, and loads (alt/gen, water pump, etc) shift it.

So you should solidly, confidently, find top-dead-center TDC #1 compression stroke.

The finger-in-hole method is my favorite and pretty reliable. YOu gotta wet your finger, maybe cut your fingernails, etc so that your finger SEALS in the hole. I have skinny fingers, it's some effort to get in there, and sparkplug threads start to cut my fingernails. But you need a gas-tight seal. 100 - 150 psi of compression absolutely will phart your phinger out, clear as day. It will actually sound like a...

All of this stuff is Old World. It's tactile skill based. It's not inherently hard, just maybe alien to you. Dunno your age, experience, exposure, upbringing, outlook, etc.  What's most lovely is when you work this crap out, your "tool kit" will be your eyes, ears, hands, and sticky fingers.

Either way you find TDC, it won't be *precise*, but within 5, 10, 15 degrees due to the imprecise nature of your finger, lol. So then usually you rotate the engine slowly with a wrench to line up the marks.

BUT WHAT IF YOUR MARK CANT BE TRUSTED -- eg the spun balancer.

At some point you simply have to replace it/send it out for rebuild. Another $100 bill.... but don't worry about this yet.

If you find TDC finger method, and the groove in the pulley is an inch a way or so, then use a 3/4" socket and rotate the engine (clockwise only) so that the mark is lined up. If it's PAST the mark, go TWO TURNS past it, not one. One turn will be exhaust stroke...



If the timing light flashes are not illuminating a single spot on the pulley, something's wrong. Are you sure the pickup is clipped onto #1 plug wire? Or, the balancer is so bad that the pulley is simply slipping, in which case remove and replace is the next deal.


If it's running and reasonably smoothly, don't freak out. One thing at a time. It's just metal. Leave the carb issue, if it indeed is, til last.


Check that the distributor vacuum advance is working:

1) the hose is connected to a port on the carburetor that has NO vacuum at idle, and above idle, has vacuum. This alone might solve the off-the-line bog/sluggishness. If it's run off the manifold, then as soon as you crack the throttle, vaccum drops (of course) and then so does vacuum advance, retarding the engine. On "ported vacuum", as it's called, the opposite happens -- when you start to accelerate lightly, suddenly advance increases and that makes it have a bit more power. 

2) Take the hose off the distributor (leave it on the carb) to do the above check.

3) Take the hose off the carb and leave it on the distributor. Suck on the end of the hose. It should NOT flow air. If it does, the vacuum advance unit is bad and needs replacement.

1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto
1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5
http://www.ramblerLore.com

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63RumbleRambler View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote 63RumbleRambler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/21/2022 at 9:54pm
Thank you Tom! This calmed me down and is definitely putting me at ease 😆. Thank you for giving multiple directions on how to attack this…I’m going to re read this and report what I can find.  The wealth of knowledge you provide is really helping us newer AMC guys out tremendously.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bigbad69 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/22/2022 at 10:11am
If the timing mark is wandering under the timing light, two things come to mind:
  1. vacuum leak
  2. worn distributor bushings

Get yourself a vacuum gauge if you don't already have one, they're cheap. Plug it into an intake manifold port. The reading should be stable around 18 in-Hg at idle. If it's not stable, start looking for the leak.

  • First thing I would check is the wipers. Disconnect the vacuum line for the wipers at the manifold and plug it. Does that make the vacuum more stable? If so, check the lines to the booster on the fuel pump. It may be the booster itself, which means replacing or rebuilding the fuel pump.
  • If it's not the wipers, you will have to hunt for it. Spray WD-40 at fittings, carb base, anywhere there is a joint that could leak air. Some people like to use an unlit propane torch. The idea is to introduce something flammable that could get sucked into the leak. It will stabilize the vacuum. Be careful! Setting your engine on fire will really screw up your day.

If the vacuum is fine, then suspect a worn distributor. That would require replacing or rebuilding it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tomj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/22/2022 at 8:12pm
Originally posted by bigbad69 bigbad69 wrote:

If the timing mark is wandering under the timing light, two things come to mind:
  1. vacuum leak
  2. worn distributor bushings


OP said something about the mark rotating. So it's a question of, is it jittery? Won't stand still but moves around a half inch, jumping around? Or rotating round and round. Jittery like shaky, work distro, really awful points, vacuum leak for sure. Rotating around the circumference would be plain weird, and slipping balancer, or bad timing light, or something. 

Right! Vacuum gauge! With skill you can read a lot about an engine. See stuck valves (but not which one), vacuum leaks, etc. Totally worthwhile tool.

1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto
1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5
http://www.ramblerLore.com

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wittsend Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/23/2022 at 11:19am
Given the potential for a balancer to slip in old cars it would seem prudent to mark the balancer at TDC on the inner and outer section (a nick mark with a Dremel or even a chisel would do) BEFORE they slip.

Has anyone ever tried repairing their balancer themselves? I see a lot of people pouring their own Urethane suspension bushings to replace. I'd think three properly sized drill bits placeed 120 degrees apart would center the inner and outer portions. Then one could align the marks mentioned above (retrospectively you did do that, didn't you?) and pour the Urethane in the gap. I believe the cost to have the balancer fixed is about $150 and the Urethane is far cheaper than that.

Interestingly the crank on my 145 CI Corvair engine has little counter weights and no balancer. Apparently the 2.60" stroke allows for that, quite different from the AMC 196's 4.25" stroke. When GM went to the 164 CI engine (1964) it was all stroke increase and the engine did get a balancer.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tomj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/23/2022 at 10:11pm
That's a good point on alignment before failure. I think I'll mark mine. I wonder if there's some identifying marks on the two halfs.

Balance is the only concern. Is spacing sufficient?

1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto
1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5
http://www.ramblerLore.com

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FSJunkie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/24/2022 at 2:38am
Compression check time. Let's rule out a burned valve right now... 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tomj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/24/2022 at 10:26pm
Good point.

1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto
1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5
http://www.ramblerLore.com

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pacerman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/25/2022 at 6:37pm
Years ago I marked my balancer (199 engine) with a chisel before I sent it to Damper Dudes for refurbishment.  Sure enough, when I got it back, they had misaligned the marks.  I sent it back and they corrected it.  Joe
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