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Starter Drive will Not Engage Flywheel

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pacerman View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pacerman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Starter Drive will Not Engage Flywheel
    Posted: Oct/03/2022 at 8:31pm
The engine is a 195.6 OHV with recent rebuild and is tight but does turn.  Starter is freshly rebuilt by a local shop with a new armature and a new solenoid.  Starter is a late 1962 Delco with solenoid on board.  Battery is brand new and fully charged.  The engine is on wooden supports on the concrete floor.  This is a test firing before it goes in the car.  Starter initially engaged flywheel for a short period.  Now it just grinds against the flywheel teeth.  I tried another starter (Autolite for a flat head 195.6).  And it does the same thing.  Initially caught the flywheel after about two attempts to start, it just grinds against the flywheel teeth.  

I have another flywheel with perfect looking teeth and plan to try that one tomorrow with either starter that works.  Spacer plate is in place.  

If the different flywheel does not work I am out of ideas.   Thoughts?  Joe
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote troutwilly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct/03/2022 at 10:43pm
Before I went to changing the flywheel, I'd remove the starter and run it in a vise on the bench, noting how far out the gear is thrown from the starter's mounting face.  Do both starters to see if there's a difference.  Then try to measure the distance from the mounting face to the flywheel teeth and see what you get.  Also, check the teeth on the flywheel to make sure they're OK.

And a question for those who know.  Is there some adjustment on the older starters/motors to make sure the starter gear meshes properly with the flywheel? Maybe the starter needs to move farther away from the flywheel/crank center.
Bill O.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote American67 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct/06/2022 at 5:47am
Not sure if this applies to the 196 engine, but the starter will do the same thing on a 199/232 if the starter bolts are incorrect. The original type bolts align the starter to where it should sit. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tomj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct/06/2022 at 11:16pm
ideas for helping with diagnosis:

Both above are excellent ideas.

1) What American67 says; try loosening the bolts a turn or so, see if it changes.

2) pull all the plugs, if you haven't, to make it easier to turn.

3) Can you remove the solenoid from the starter, and manually operate the lever to engage the pinion? Wouldn't suggest this normally but with engine on the floor it would be easier.

4) is there a lot of clearance around the tip of the pinion shaft and it's bushing? There's a lot of torque there, and when the armature gets off-axis it binds, the brushes make poor contact, etc and a lot of heat but little torque is made.

1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto
1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5
http://www.ramblerLore.com

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pacerman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct/08/2022 at 9:29am
Thanks for all the input.  I have tried three different starters now.  I will change the flywheel today.      

I have had very occasional success with the starter actually turning the engine.  It only lasts for one revolution of the engine or so and then once it fails to mesh it just grinds and will not engage the flywheel again.  The flywheel teeth did not look significantly damaged the last time I inspected it.  

I tried loosening the bolts a turn or two.  No joy.   I tried an autolite starter (standard is Delco, but an autolite fits) with different bolts.  No joy.   I made sure I had the correct starter bolts for the Delco starter.  The original starter was freshly rebuilt with a new armature at great expense.  No joy.

Today I will swap the flywheel.  I have at least one other six cylinder flywheel with excellent teeth.  More later.   and thanks.   Joe
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wittsend Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct/08/2022 at 10:28am
 I'm not sure if there are long and short throw solenoids but it they exist and the throw is too short it might be coming just short of contacting the flywheel before the electrical contact points turn the starter. A loose or missing pivot pin can also cause this problem.

Assuming you have the starter with the removable round solenoid I would recommend removing the starter, putting some clay on the gear and then reinstalling it without the solenoid. Then pull back on the plunger the depth it travels in the solenoid. What you are trying to do is get an impression of how the teeth are meshing (full front to back contact and proper mesh gap at the gear - not too tight or too loose). While it may be time consuming you might take impressions at numerous points to access if there is something causing an out of round condition.

 Given the fact you have tried numerous starters look for debris under the flywheel to crankshaft contact point (or those surfaces improperly machined) that would cause the flywheel to wobble front to back. That can cause the teeth to oddly contact the starter teeth intermittently and potentially cause binding at various points.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pacerman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Oct/08/2022 at 5:52pm

Guys, Thanks again (again) for all the suggestions.  I had success today and started the motor and the problem with the knock in the bottom end due to a mis-sized rod bearing appears to be fixed.  It started and ran find.  No cooling system.  It developed 25 psi oil pressure with the plugs out before I started it.  I noticed the needle move up when it ran briefly but did not note the pressure.  I'll start it a couple more times before putting it in storage, destined for one of our Rambler club cars (62 Classic 2-door) which will be fore sale hopefully next spring.

Anyway two things might have been the problem.  The cribbing that the engine was sitting on protruded less than a quarter of an inch on the left side of the motor preventing the bellhousing from sitting flush with the block near the bottom on that side (so starter alignment could have been in issue).  The second thing that I did was change the flywheel.  The previous one did have some damage to a few of the teeth presumably from all the grinding issues I had experienced over the last few days.  

Joe
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