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speakers

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uncljohn View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote uncljohn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/01/2014 at 12:39pm
To make it easy on myself I have been purchasing speakers from this source for my cars.
What ever I have been looking for has been found here.
https://www.onlinecarstereo.com




70 390 5spd Donohue
74 Hornet In restoration
76 Hornet, 5.7L Mercury Marine Power
80 Fuel Injected I6 Spirit
74 232 I-6, 4bbl, 270HL Isky Cam
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dltowers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/01/2014 at 12:41pm
Thanks George for the detailed information regarding speakers.
I had heard that using late/modern type speakers with old type radio
would cause the radio to over heat and draw excess voltage.
Original Owner, 1974 Javelin:
360ci,2v,727TC. Motorola Multiplex with 8-Track.
G4 Plum exterior with 421Q Black Uganda Interior. Purchased on July 16, 1974 from Hooker AMC, Sherman, TX for $4500.20
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71 Javelin AMX O.O. View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 71 Javelin AMX O.O. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/01/2014 at 2:33pm
Everyone:

Since you are on the subject of original speakers, I still have the factory front and rear set from my 1971 Javelin AMX. Since getting it back on the road the last two years I have not been happy with the sound. I am the original owner, also, and can't remember them being that bad? But we are used to a lot better quality, today.
Anyway, the car has only 15,000 original miles on it and was inside stored for 38 years. Can these, like new speakers, be rebuilt to today's standards? I would like to keep the originality and have todays sound quality.

Thanks

Steve
Original owner 1971 Javelin AMX
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uncljohn View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote uncljohn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/01/2014 at 3:36pm
Today's speakers for todays radio's have features in them that I believe are not compatible with yesterdays radio's and you have to watch what you are buying. '
Many of the speakers today take far more power to just run them normally than the older ones did. and todays radio's have more power to do that with.
The bottom line is more or less going to wallmart and buying what is on sale is no longer a viable approach.
The lack of knowledge surrounding what is available and what can be used will lead you down a path you do not want to go.
However compatible speakers are still available but the odds are going to an on line catalog source might very well be a better approach
The ohms on a speaker is more or less o.k., if the speaker you are buying is more or less the same value and size.  3.2 = more or less 4 ohms.  8 ohms does not but the odds are nothing is going to happen catastrophically to your radio if you mix them up.
These are old cars and driven rarely and radio's are rarely pushed to their max.  The problem is new speakers with new statistics work with built in cross overs and some of those take a fair amount of wattage to run correctly.
The out put of the older radios are about 6 to 10 watts per channel.
An older speaker's ohm rating (4) or (8) will match up fairly well with what is available with more or less the same thing now and work.
But purchasing a speaker rated at a very high wattage pretty much says it takes that much to run it correctly and your old radio only puts out about 6 or 10 or so.  And sound quality may fall way off.
And new radio's designed to run them that is those in newer cars have that wattage requirement.
As far as keeping it original, that is a personal choice I guess, but a speaker that sounds good hidden behind the grill is worth a whole lot more than one that looks original but does not work and you can't see it because it is behind a grill.
Just saying.
I installed an old technology radio in my 1980 Spirit in 1999.  I put in new technology speakers using factory  mounting brackets last year.  The were more or less the right ohms and the right size and low wattage ones meaning they were compatible with old technology radio's. The sound coming from them is a noticeable improvement. They can be found if you look. But walmart is generally not the place to look any more.



Edited by uncljohn - Jan/01/2014 at 3:39pm
70 390 5spd Donohue
74 Hornet In restoration
76 Hornet, 5.7L Mercury Marine Power
80 Fuel Injected I6 Spirit
74 232 I-6, 4bbl, 270HL Isky Cam
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george w View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote george w Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/01/2014 at 8:47pm
Wow, quite a bit of input on this topic! An additional two cents worth is that virtually all speakers that you can buy today are superior in materials and design technology over the very basic speakers that AMC bought to use in their passenger cars through the 70's and maybe even later. Due to the superior materials used in most speakers sold today, they will be able to tolerate, and are rated at higher wattage levels, than our feeble OEM radios can produce. The fact that a modern speaker is rated to be able to withstand a higher wattage does not neccessarily imply that it will REQUIRE more wattage in order to produce a given volume level. In most cases today's speakers are more efficient than the small, Alnico magnet, paper cone speakers that the factory used. This translates into more acoustic output at any given wattage input.

Keep in mind too that the impedance rating has nothing to do with the efficiency of a speaker nor it's power handling capability. It's strictly an electrical measurement of the speakers voice coil resistance. Typically 4 ohm ( more or less ) speakers ahve been used in cars as low voltage car amplifiers operating on 12 volts can produce more useable power into a 4 ohm speaker than a 8 ohm speaker. It's simple Ohm's law. The lower the resistance, the more current will flow at any given voltage. The more current that flows, then the higher the "power" developed in the load. Amplifiers only develop voltage at their output terminals. Apply this voltage to a load, like a speaker, and current will begin to flow. Take the current flow, which is measured in "amps". multiply it by the speakers impedance ( resistance in ohms ) and you have a "power" figure. Since the audio signal is varying rapidly and constantly the actual "power" delivered to a speaker is also always varying. Typically over a 5 to 1 to 10 to one ratio.

Today's speakers have far better cone materials, typically will use a separate tweeter for high frequencies and have far stronger, more powerful magnetic structures that increase the electrical to acoustic efficiency.
Even the smaller sized speakers today, like the 5-1/4" speakers frequently used in the front doors and rear hatch areas in cars like the Spirit hatchbacks, use separate tweeters or at least a "whizzer" cone tweeter for improved clarity and high frequency ability compared to the OEM single, paper coned speakers. AMC started upgrading the sound systems in the 80's using better speakers. For example, the later Grand Wagoneer's were available with the well known Jensen speakers in their "premium" sound systems.
Nowadays "brand name" OEM sound systems have become commonplace with Bose being probably the most well known. JBL, Infinity, Boston Acoustics and even such high prestige audio brands such as Bang and Olufsen and B&W are now appearing across the spectrum in today's new cars.

Edited by george w - Jan/01/2014 at 8:50pm
Long time AMC fan. Ambassador 343, AMX 390, Hornet 360, Spirit 304 and Javelin 390. All but javelin bought new.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote uncljohn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/01/2014 at 9:44pm
[QUOTE=george w]. Due to the superior materials used in most speakers sold today, they will be able to tolerate, and are rated at higher wattage levels, than our feeble OEM radios can produce. The fact that a modern speaker is rated to be able to withstand a higher wattage does not neccessarily imply that it will REQUIRE more wattage in order to produce a given volume level.
Unquote]
This statement is true up to a point.
As long as the speaker one chooses does not have any specific added features such as built in cross over circuitry, this is circuitry that steers or directs certain frequencys to itself and other speakers the  speaker will indeed pretty much work with old school radio's.  But unless you know what it is that you are looking at, a higher wattage rated speaker at say a 4 ohm rating will give you less output because in general that speaker is going to be designed to work with a newer and more complex radio.  While price is not a real good indicator the cheaper speakers run the odds of working with an old AMC AM/FM radio or 8 track and work well.

(QUOTE.)
 Apply this voltage to a load, like a speaker, and current will begin to flow. Take the current flow, which is measured in "amps". multiply it by the speakers impedance ( resistance in ohms ) and you have a "power" figure. Since the audio signal is varying rapidly and constantly the actual "power" delivered to a speaker is also always varying. Typically over a 5 to 1 to 10 to one ratio.
(UNQUOTE)

Watts = Volts X Amps.  thus watts supplied to a speaker is the working voltage of the car, Maximum 12 volts times the amps the speaker will draw at any particular voltage of the signal that takes place across a 4 ohm load.

OR

 Watts = amps (squared) X R where R = the value of resistance of the speaker X the value of the current that can be supplied by the source squared.  That is the limits the radio can deliver.
Both are basic formula's used in electronics to calculate the same thing for different reasons.

If you have a high wattage speaker in your car being driven by an old school radio the odds are that speaker needs more watts supplied to it in order to function correctly and your radio just does not have the guts to supply it.

It is far too easy to purchase the wrong speaker for an old school radio.
Look for something that is priced at a lower level and avoid high wattage advertisement if you don't know what it means if you do know what it means this posting has no value for you so forget it.

{Quote}
Today's speakers have far better cone materials, typically will use a separate tweeter for high frequencies and have far stronger, more powerful magnetic structures that increase the electrical to acoustic efficiency.
{Unquote}
Absolutely true, a new tech inexpensive (relatively) speaker sounds a ton better.
Buy the wrong speaker and you won't be able to hear it.

You can if you carefully select a new tech speaker you can eliminate tearing up door upholstery and just put the 2 speakers in the rear package tray or the rear location in hatch backs or wagons.
 
70 390 5spd Donohue
74 Hornet In restoration
76 Hornet, 5.7L Mercury Marine Power
80 Fuel Injected I6 Spirit
74 232 I-6, 4bbl, 270HL Isky Cam
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dltowers View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dltowers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/02/2014 at 1:08am
Target,
You had asked earlier if I had a photo of the original rear speakers from my Javelin.
I did not think I did, but as I have kept all of the broken/replaced parts from the car's restoration,
I found one of my original speakers that was mounted under the rear package tray.
Below is a photo for your reference.
It is completely disintegrated, but you can still make out the part number
and the 8 ohm markings.
Original Owner, 1974 Javelin:
360ci,2v,727TC. Motorola Multiplex with 8-Track.
G4 Plum exterior with 421Q Black Uganda Interior. Purchased on July 16, 1974 from Hooker AMC, Sherman, TX for $4500.20
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71 Javelin AMX O.O. View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 71 Javelin AMX O.O. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/02/2014 at 7:51am
George & Uncle John:
 
Your expertise in the speaker area is impressive.  However you did not answer my basic question....can an OEM, orignal AMC speaker, be re-built to today's standards to get better sound quality?  I understand the radio may not have the power to drive the newer speakers, but is there something that can be done to the orignal speakers to get them to sound better?  Maybe I'm just deaming here and you may not know if this is possible?  I appreciate all the discussion on this subject.
 
Steve
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mr. Ed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/02/2014 at 8:10am
George's info should be impeccable. That's what he does for a living. Has been for a very long time.

Later!
Mr. Ed
2014 Jeep Grand Cherokee Laredo "Gwendolyn."
1978 Concord Sport coupe "Mr. Black".
1982 Concord wagon. The Admiral. FOR SALE!
1976 Sportabout X, 304, auto, air. The Bronze Goddess

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bigbad69 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/02/2014 at 8:31am
Originally posted by uncljohn uncljohn wrote:

Today's speakers for todays radio's have features in them that I believe are not compatible with yesterdays radio's and you have to watch what you are buying. '
I disagree. Modern materials and engineering have improved both speakers and amplifiers, but the principal used to make the sound is a century old. There are many audiophiles out there who insist that tube (valve for Brits and Aussies) driven amps are superior to semiconductor driven amps. The only compatibility you need to be concerned with is the system impedance. If the amp requires 4 ohm speakers, use 4 ohm speakers. If the amp requires 8 ohm speakers, use 8 ohm speakers.

A speaker is nothing more than a moving coil which pushes air. The amplifier supplies the current to operate the coil. The speaker impedance must be matched to the design of the amplifier, otherwise, the amp cannot supply enough current which will give poor sound reproduction, or the amplifier could be overdriven, resulting in damage to the output stage.


1969 BBO Javelin SST 390 T10
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