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Removing pollution equipment

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troutwilly View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote troutwilly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/12/2023 at 8:51pm
BOBB,
- You'll need 30 "points" to be able to post pictures.  There are work-arounds that can be found on the site.
- That hose with the screw/bolt in it was probably a source of vacuum for whatever it was connected to. If you pull the screw/bolt when the engine is running and put your finger over the end you might notice some vacuum there.  Therefore I would say where ever it went is not going to be a source of a vacuum leak.
- I used to live 25 miles south of where I'm at now, in Louisiana, property elevation 25 feet, and we always joked we lived in the highest part of town.  I believe I would be extremely light headed (I'm already somewhat light headed) in your area.
- I love Pacers.
Bill O.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote FSJunkie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/13/2023 at 3:50am
Not much pollution equipment on a 1977 AMC six. Most of it actually helps the engine.

The thermostatic air cleaner is fantastic. It is your friend in the cold. Keep it operational.

EGR is sort of "meh". Good working EGR is fine, no EGR is fine. Crappy working EGR is awful. It doesn't make for much of a mess, only two or three hoses...but it can be eliminated.

The TCS system changes the distributor vacuum advance depending on what speed you are driving and the engine temperature. It's a harmless system, but there are several hoses and switches that are part of it that can be eliminated. 

The AIR injection system is most of the mess. It's neither helpful nor hurtful to the engine's performance, so removing it has zero consequences. I like to remove my AIR systems simply because the pumps have a knack for seizing up. 

It probably has a catalytic converter. Not all sixes got one that year, but about half did. No plumbing involved in that. 

Absolutely leave your PCV system alone. Good crankcase ventilation is paramount to engine life. 
1955 Packard
1966 Marlin
1972 Wagoneer
1973 Ambassador
1977 Hornet
1982 Concord D/L
1984 Eagle Limited
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farna View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote farna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/13/2023 at 8:33am
For the most part removing pollution equipment is a bad idea. The equipment itself doesn't rob much power AS LONG AS IT IS WORKING AS DESIGNED. There is the rub! A little theromstatic valve that shifts vacuum around fails, and suddenly the engine runs like crap under certain conditions. Idles poorly but runs great when warm, or idles great runs like crap when warm. Most of the stuff is little understood and some of the parts are hard to find or no longer available. But once understood you can usually get it back in working order, and the engine runs like it should.

When removing it you almost have to retrograde the ignition and carb. There are work arounds, like the infamous "Nutter Bypass" for the electronic BBD carb, but they have limitations. If you remove it all it's best to get an older non-smog carb and distributor then use the older tuning. Many of the smog distributors have controls that affect timing, in simplest form a thermostatic vacuum switch that shifts vacuum to the advance from ported to manifold (or vice-versa?) as the engine warms up, in more complicated form several wires to a ECU that controls timing. The timing curve (weight and springs) are different than non-smog engines.

Many people advocate removing because the stuff "chokes the engine down".  Not always true. The entire tune of the engines with smog equipment was changed (even camshaft!) to reduce emissions, equipment wasn't just tacked on. So they were often de-tuned on purpose to meet emissions standards, and it's not just changing timing. Changing to a non-emissions camshaft helps in many cases, though in some the cams aren't different enough to be worth the effort. I'd use a better aftermarket grind like an Isky 256 Supercam, or their other Supercam (264?) if changing the cam.

What is true is the "desmogging" may allow an engine with faulty smog devices run a bit better. Not likely as good as a non-smog engine, but noticeably better due to the faulty equipment causing issues.
Frank Swygert
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote FSJunkie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/27/2023 at 11:57pm
Most of the things that people say about emission controls is utter nonsense. People just don't like the idea of the government telling them how their engine should run, so they say it chokes the engine down. It makes them sound like an expert. The reality is much different. 

I have experimented a lot of my 1977 AMC six; running it with and without emission controls to see what happens. 

You can remove all of the emission controls and it will still run great with the original carburetor and distributor. By that I mean it still runs pretty much the same. The exception is the thermostatic air cleaner. That needs to remain operational unless you seriously modify the carburetor jetting and choke adjustments in ways that are less than ideal. 

1970's AMC sixes are very tolerant. The 1980's ones are not.

1955 Packard
1966 Marlin
1972 Wagoneer
1973 Ambassador
1977 Hornet
1982 Concord D/L
1984 Eagle Limited
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farna View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote farna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/29/2023 at 9:08am
I was referring mainly to the 80s systems when talking about the distributor, I should have made that clear. Most of those have the emission controls affecting timing to a degree. The early emissions controls are tuned slightly different, I'm pretty sure the advance curves are a little different from non-emissions distributors, but not enough to be noticeable in everyday driving.
Frank Swygert
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MIPS View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote MIPS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/29/2023 at 2:29pm
Originally posted by FSJunkie FSJunkie wrote:

Most of the things that people say about emission controls is utter nonsense. People just don't like the idea of the government telling them how their engine should run, so they say it chokes the engine down. It makes them sound like an expert. The reality is much different. 


I did some research on this back when I was first learning about the CeC and determined that you can break it down to two groups:

1-Old knowledge. I will not deny that the earliest forms of emission controls were very crude. Such things as the fixed-orifice EGR which ran under all engine conditions, or the early pellet-type catalytic converters which ran hot and were prone to failing often enough that the TSM dedicates a section purely to opening the converter and replacing the catalyst. By the end of the 70's you began to see what became the modern standard operational requirements for things like spark control, secondary air and the EGR but a combination of horrible first impressions and poor maintenance resulted in a stigma that it just never worked.

2-Unwillingness to learn. (people don't like hearing this)
It's complicated. We are all men. It's hard to admit sometimes you have to look at the manual, I know. ;)
AMC's TSM's especially are invaluable and the vacuum routing diagrams for every model and region are available in countless configurations and yet how many times do we read threads where "I don't know what plugs into this" is repeated? Sometimes you do have to substitute for EOP products or install alternatives. There's at least five different size vacuum hoses used in the Eagle for example. You can substitute to two common sizes and performance is not impacted. The dual-mode CTO switch is not available from anyone as-is, but after a few hours of looking up temperature specs I found a compatible substitute that had no AMC cross-references but still screwed in and works exactly the same.
The biggest misconception about secondary air is that the smog pump robs horsepower. It doesn't It's a vane pump with negligible load requirements compared to a belt idler. Other than the vanes the only wear point is the front and rear bearings.

Yet coupled with the first group and the homework you have to do on the second it seems most people opt to remove it and hope for the best with mixed results or as mentioned, admitting the car will never run right in certain power bands without major alterations to the engine because it's been redesigned over the years repeated to match the tune provisioned by the emission control system.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote farna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/30/2023 at 6:49am
Very good summary MIPS!! Emissions controls changed over the years, which makes the omission of what years I was referring to a big one! And the importance of having the factory manual for your car.



Edited by farna - May/30/2023 at 6:51am
Frank Swygert
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BOBB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/30/2023 at 7:54am
Thanks for the info. You guys are being very helpful. Keep it coming.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BOBB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/30/2023 at 8:28am
Frank,
What in the world is the NUTTER BYPASS?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote MIPS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/30/2023 at 10:56am
The nutter bypass is a procedure used to separate the computer from the ignition module and the carburetor so you can either use different ignition systems, a different carburetor/EFI or run the engine in a pre-computerized configuration. Starting in 1983 the coil TACH signal passed through the computer rather than go straight from the Duraspark to the coil so it could electronically retard the spark timing as needed but if the computer failed or was missing the engine would not run. The year prior to that had the famous Yellow Grommet 3-cable Duraspark and before that I believe it was still the good-ol' blue grommet 2-cable, then Prestolite once you went into the 70's.
It is worth noting that when the bypass is performed you mush COMPLETELY isolate all computer control of the vehicle (feedback carb, idle kick, secondary air, spark control etc. because the CeC will only work correctly if the engine is *completely* stock and will not allow major alterations) or it will lose its mind and blindly try to continue operating the car. It is also worth noting that in regions that mandate inspections it's an immediate fail, hence why most of the write-ups I've seen online thinly mask it as "a diagnostic procedure" because it mainly gets used for emission deletes and performance upgrades.

The CeC was mainly an 80's thing for the Eagle/Jeep/Concord. I don't believe the Pacer hung around long enough to get the same treatment.

Edited by MIPS - May/30/2023 at 11:21am
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