Y'all,

My ongoing quest to replace a bent hub/flange on the AMC 20 in my '79 Spirit looks to be ending up with one-piece axles using tapered bearings.

The issue is how it's gotten to here and what I'm now being quoted on a price of Moser one-piece axles.  I thought my issue was finally solved after months of looking when a supplier claimed to have an appropriate axle and hub, which I paid for with a money order (fool me once).  Turns out, the supplier didn't have what he claimed.  When I demanded my money back, he offered to get me a set of one-piece axles from Moser "for just a bit more than what you've already paid me," which seemed reasonable, so I agreed, given that http://www.moserengineering.com/cjs-moser-one-piece-jeep-axle-kit-fits-1976-83-cj5-and-1976-81-cj7.item" rel="nofollow - the Moser ones for Jeeps run $345 .

Well, now he's asked for more money, so much in fact that the total would be twice what the Moser Jeep axles run.  He also asked that I send the money via PayPal "friends and family," which I said I would not do.

So, what's a reasonable price to pay for Moser AMC 20 one-piece axles for a car?  I'm not interested in naming the supplier at this point, but I will out them publicly if this is not taken care of to my satisfaction.

Thanks in advance,
Shawn

NOTE 1:  I do not want axles with ball bearings because I autocross, so the Dr. Diff axles to fit unmodified AMC 20 housings aren't an option.
NOTE 2:  I have already shipped the axles to Moser and they've received them.

Who is the vendor?  How much is he asking for total?  That scenario is pretty screwed up for anyone that values their reputation.

I paid $380 for my Moser, for my Javelin,  axles a few years ago. 

I'm not ready to out him yet.  I want to give him a chance to un-screw the situation, and if he doesn't then I'll absolutely let folks know.  I was pretty steamed when I heard how much more he wanted, so much so that I quit working on another car I've been thrashing on to get to a show that's out of state this weekend (I didn't want to make any mistakes or do anything unsafe because I was distracted).

1BadJav wrote: How much is he asking for total?

$700.

1BadJav wrote: That scenario is pretty screwed up for anyone that values their reputation.

Agreed!

I have the parts out and if you need them, I will go out and take measurements tonight. You can have them for the cost of shipping.

(I wrote on them AMC15 but they are not.)

$700??????!!!!  That is way, way, out of line

That's incredibly generous, Tom -- thanks!  I will certainly let you know one way or another!

call moser and ask them directly. he's likely adding more to cover a tidy profit for himself?

get all your $$ back and deal with moser directly

http://www.doctordiff.com/amc-1-piece-passenger-car-axle-pkg.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.doctordiff.com/amc-1-piece-passenger-car-axle-pkg.html

So, Moser will build one piece axle kits with tapered roller bearings for a model 20??

Dennis 

I received my axles and the bearings ARE NOT TAPERED.  In short, Shane at Moser says they "don't do" tapered bearings on the car axles and "doesn't know" why they are able to do that on the Jeep axles (even though everything is the same except for the bolt circle & flange).

Set 9 bearing OD = 2.559"

Set 5 bearing OD = 2.5625" (stock AMC 20)

Maybe a few thou clearance isn't a concern for some ... or maybe they include bore-tite or quick metal or similar to fill the gap?

Always double-check and question aftermarket options.  Maybe it works, maybe not?

Dutchman used to list one-piece axle shafts for the Set 5 bearing.  Don't know if they still sell them?  Issue with the set 5 is setting correct enplay.  Set 9 is a bi-directional load capable, single-row tapered roller bearing.  Uses a rib-ring to get the bi-directional load capacity, so need to ensure installed in the correct orientation and remove the shaft thrust block.

A 9" might be a more reliable option.  At least the aftermarket mostly understands them and lots of options.

That's an interesting point, but in the numerous discussions about Moser's products, I haven't run across a single mention that this has been an issue for anyone, so I'm not concerned about this.

Red Devil wrote: Set 9 is a bi-directional load capable, single-row tapered roller bearing.  Uses a rib-ring to get the bi-directional load capacity, so need to ensure installed in the correct orientation and remove the shaft thrust block.

Thanks, I'm aware of all of that.

Red Devil wrote: A 9" might be a more reliable option.  At least the aftermarket mostly understands them and lots of options.

That's out of the question for now.  The diff had been rebuilt not too long before I obtained the car and has a TrueTrac, and I'm averse to the additional power loss that 9"s have when there's no need for the capacity of a 9".

Remembered a post from way back of issues a member had with Set9, but seems mostly to be a problem of variations in housing bore depth and getting a suitable spacer made to positively retain the bearing axially.   Still not a fan of the loose bore fit or paricularly of how the bearings are retained, but seems few options without changing housing ends.  For drag, cruising or general street use, the Green sealed ball bearings seem fine.

https://theamcforum.com/forum/bearing-fitting-with-moser-axles_topic53408_page3.html" rel="nofollow - https://theamcforum.com/forum/bearing-fitting-with-moser-axles_topic53408_page3.html

Hope this helps, RD

Him:

I can refund your money less $50 for my time and getting the right parts, and you can buy straight from Moser.

Me:

I think compensating you for your time talking with Moser is reasonable, but not $50 worth.  I already knew about their offerings and you really didn't help me get the right parts from them, as I would have worked out the right parts with them anyhow.  I was only going through you because of:  1) Your extreme reluctance to return my money, 2) the understanding that they'd cost me only a bit more via you, and 3) your offer to pay shipping.  I think $25 is reasonable and would like $300 back from you.

TL;DR -- He's refunding my money, but not all of it, because he wants compensation for time spent.  It remains to be seen how much I will get back -- $275 or $300. I'm only agreeing with some compensation so I can get this over with. I can tell you this much -- he won't ever be getting any of my business if I can help it.

Well, even getting $275 back isn't unreasonable. I understand your frustrations with the whole matter though.

You mentioned not needing the strength of the 9". I understand you want to use the AMC 20 since it was recently rebuilt and has a Tru-Trac, but a Jeep XJ Dana 35 would have worked. They are a little wider than a car AMC 15, and a little stronger -- and have one-piece axle/hubs. Many have limited slip, but not all. There was also a HD D35 used in a lot of 4.0L Comanches (not sure about XJs -- probably fewer) that has slightly larger diameter axles. You would likely have to use deeper wheels like the Eagles did (XJ/MJ axle is same width as Eagle) though. Maybe not an option for you, but could be for others who want a bit stronger axle than an !MC 15, but not as heavy as a Ford 8.8" or 9". The Ford 8" is also a bit stronger than an AMC 15 and pretty common. The D35 and Ford 8" are a bit stronger mainly because of the one-piece axle/hub. Some of the internals may be stronger, especially in the HD D35, but they are roughly equivalent to the AMC 15. AMC15/D35 use the same 7-9/16" ring gear (interchanges), but other internals are different.

The weak link when doing more than AMC engineered into the cars rear axle is undoubtedly the two piece axle. The differential ring and pinion are plenty tough to handle more power than people think.

The axle and how it's retained are the issue. years ago a guy road raced a pretty much stock Javelin at BlackHawk Farms Raceway, I read his story. He ended up using Ford 9" ends on the axles and retainers, IIRC. I wish I could find the article. If anyone knows where to find this article, please post a link, it might help Scrappy.

Ray Larson's "The Story of My Engine".   His issues with the stock AMC20 were after he " upgraded" to aftermarket one-piece axle shafts.  They would work out of the housing during the race as the pressed-on bearings and retainers didn't locate the shaft positively like the stock setup.  Fixed by going to 9" ends for more robust bearings and retention.  Did bend some stock shafts going over curbs on the track, hence, desire for something stronger.

https://theamcforum.com/forum/the-story-of-my-engine-by-ray-larson_topic12796.html" rel="nofollow - https://theamcforum.com/forum/the-story-of-my-engine-by-ray-larson_topic12796.html

Hope this helps,

RD

The 7.5" is 75 lbs lighter than the big axle. If you go the junkyard route, they're cheap, people toss them. They'd be fine for sixes and light V8s. One piece axles. Use the dual-pattern U-joint to connect to an AMC driveshaft. Last of "our" type is 1998.

THe thing is, getting one narrowed is easy. Only the tubes need work, you can buy axles of whartever length you want and they're not pricey.

Of course AMC wheels bolt on perfectly.

Not AMC, but it's not a part that changes the character of the car in any way (other than better brakes).

Those are good points, but beside the axle itself, I don't want to deal with another set of brakes (it has aftermarket discs), getting a drive shaft made, and having to possibly have wheel fitment issues with the new wheels I already have.

Another benefit of the 7.5" over the 9" is less parasitic drag.  Depending on who you ask, the 9" wastes an extra ~5% in power (some say 2%, some say 10%, who knows?), which is merely a side effect if you need the strength of a 9", but if you don't, it's just another detriment.

This is why I got a custom 12-bolt from Moser for my '57 Chevy, instead of a 9" which would have been less expensive.  I'm never going to need more than the 600 ft-lbs this 12-bolt is supposedly rated for, especially since I don't drag race (slicks or not).

Thanks, just ordered mine for a total of ~$545 for everything. 

I received my axles and the bearings ARE NOT TAPERED.  In short, when I called, Shane at Moser said they "don't do" tapered bearings on the car axles and "doesn't know" why they are able to do that on the Jeep axles (even though everything is the same except for the bolt circle & flange).

I am going to see if there's something I can do to fit the SET 9 bearings and will update with a separate thread if so.

Please elaborate.

The pressed-on ring is the retention method.  This is common on a number of axles (including the Ford 9") and isn't the big deal many make it out to be, as cornering forces on the axle are far less on the "pulling out" (axle on the inside of the turn) than they are on the "pushing in" (axle on the outside of the turn). 

Twisting the axle is not what started this whole issue and isn't a concern.  I'll be autocrossing on street tires (albeit 275/50-17 RT-660s).  The whole thing started with a bent hub and almost five months of not being able to find any parts to fix the issue (tomj's generous offer was made late in the game and I was already well down this other route, plus another person needed those axles).

6PakBee wrote: Scrappy wrote: NOTE 1:  I do not want axles with ball bearings because I autocross, so the Dr. Diff axles to fit unmodified AMC 20 housings aren't an option. Please elaborate.

Poor strength and durability in side loading.

Copied from a Jeep forum on Set9 installation issues:

"If you buy set 9 bearings from Napa or any source other than the 1 piece axle manufacturer, you will end up with bearing retainer rings that are too thick and will rub against the inner seals preventing the axle from being installed full depth. One piece AMC 20 axle kits that use set 9 bearings come with special thickness retainer rings."

Hence, the lock rings to make the Set 9 work in an AMC 20 are custom pieces and the reduced width does not retain the axles as positively axially.

Moser used to have instructions on their site for machining the shafts to fit Set9 that originally had the Green ball bearing ... or maybe other way around?  Did a quick search and couldn't find it.

My suggestion would be to run what you received from Moser with the ball bearing, monitor shafts for movement and be prepared to change bearings frequently. 

Ultimately, you may need to update housing ends to get a larger tapered roller bearing that is more positively retained, or fit snouts for full-floating ends if serious about autocrossing your car.   I'm sure Moser could do a full-floater conversion for your AMC 20, as they offer same for 9", 8.8", GM 12 bolt, etc.

Depends how hard you run your car on the track and how sticky are your tires and how well set up the suspension if the ball bearings will give satisfactory life.

Hope this helps, RD 

That's good info.  I'm going to be buying the Moser bearing package via Summit, which includes the rings.  The question is whether "as positively" matters in this case, and whether said rings are any different than the ones which come with the ball bearings, in which case there'd be no difference in retention between the two.

Red Devil wrote: Moser used to have instructions on their site for machining the shafts to fit Set9 that originally had the Green ball bearing ... or maybe other way around?  Did a quick search and couldn't find it.

It's still there.  See " https://www.moserengineering.com/library.php?cmd=download&fid=2343fc476e82cf4a9fe140e49dc65634&libid=" rel="nofollow - Print for machining seal area to use Timken Set 9 bearings on Moser Engineering One-Piece Jeep axles " at https://www.moserengineering.com/order-forms-instructions/.

It does, thanks!

iapexl8r wrote: i Installed a set of mosers one peice axels in my 1969 road race amx. I did have to add spacers after my first day at the track but have had zero problems since. talk to 4 different people and get four different opinions.

Thanks for adding your experience, Chris!

They recommended tig welding a spot between the retainer and axle which I did.

Have had one bearing go bad in 50 yrs and it's a 4sp w/slicks.

Of course I welded the tubes and perches.

Goodluck,

Ron.