Print Page | Close Window

Timing, fuel delivery vacuum leak??

Printed From: TheAMCForum.com
Category: The Garage
Forum Name: AMC V8 Engine Repair and Modifications
Forum Description: AMC-made V8 engine mechanical, ignition and fuel from basic repair to high-perf modifications
URL: https://theamcforum.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=110134
Printed Date: Apr/23/2024 at 9:35am
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.03 - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Timing, fuel delivery vacuum leak??
Posted By: 75Cj5
Subject: Timing, fuel delivery vacuum leak??
Date Posted: Apr/05/2021 at 10:27am
I am a new member and would like to first thank all of you for taking the time to read my post. I have had a challenging time getting my 304 up and running correctly. I am going to try to explain my issues without boring the life out of you.

1975 Cj5- AMC 304 - Stage 2 Cam - Edlebrock Performer intake - DUI Distributor - Long tube Hedman Headers - (Holley) Brawler Carburetor 600 cfm (vacuum advance) - everything else is stock.

Upon initial startup from complete rebuild I could never get the timing mark to line up in and consistent manner with a timing light.  I timed it by ear and by how the engine performed and it was almost perfect. Easy to start and good drivability. It did have some lag when accelerating, this is when it all went down hill. 

I tried to do a little carb tuning and when I put the vacuum gage on it held steady at "wrong valve timing" at idle but it I revved slightly it would be in the green. (I figured this was ok since the cam is slightly bigger and the carburetor might be a tad too big for this motor. 

Once I started making small adjustments with the mixture screws and the timing again things went south... I now have a popping in the carburetor and it will not go away, nor will it get even close to starting easily or idling nicely as before. (my spark plugs foul in a matter of minutes, even when I try to lean the carb out as far as possible)  

I had checked, rechecked and checked again that the motor was set at TDC correctly and every time I had myself convinced I screwed up and set it wrong... Each time it check out correct...

Yesterday I took the timing cover off to check yet again that TDC is correct. When I clock the cam gear at 3 o'clock I have 21 pins from the dot on the cam gear to the dot on the crank gear.  The manual says this is acceptable but is it really??

I did not complete a full inspection of all the push rods yet but felt of them and there does not seem to be any anomalies there yet. 

The only other thing I have yet to think of was my fuel delivery, I have a small Holley electric fuel pump that I tested and without the engine running it is pushing close to 7 psi.  I have the Holley Red fuel pump coming in today and plan to switch those out...

It really feels like a timing issue to me but from what I can tell everything is set in accordance with the manual... I'm at a loss.... 



Replies:
Posted By: iapexl8r
Date Posted: Apr/05/2021 at 9:10pm
The first thing I would do is take a look at the mechanical fly weights in the distributor. Make sure the springs are of the same weight. 
Also are you checking the timing with the vac advance vacuum line disconnected?
Also Re verify firing order just for kicks.

On the carb side of things verify the float level first
Then run those mixture screws all the way in softly till they stop then back them out 2 turns . Now I suspect you may be checking the eng vacuum at a ported pick up point. You want to be checking the vacuum off the manifold vacuum. All vacuum is not created equal.
If your manifold vacuum is too painful to acquire you can adjust the mixture screws to highest idle as you back the throttle stop out.

My guess is it is something simple . Float level and mech advance. Good luck


Posted By: 75Cj5
Date Posted: Apr/06/2021 at 8:18am
Originally posted by iapexl8r iapexl8r wrote:

The first thing I would do is take a look at the mechanical fly weights in the distributor. Make sure the springs are of the same weight. Done, they are correct.
Also are you checking the timing with the vac advance vacuum line disconnected? Yes, disconnected and plugged (Plugged on the carb side).
Also Re verify firing order just for kicks. I have done this a few times but will absolutely do it again.

On the carb side of things verify the float level first. As per the carb manual the sight windows show the fuel level right in the middle, while it is running.
Then run those mixture screws all the way in softly till they stop then back them out 2 turns . Now I suspect you may be checking the eng vacuum at a ported pick up point. You want to be checking the vacuum off the manifold vacuum. All vacuum is not created equal. I have attached a pic, the vacuum port I use is circled in green, The first time I had it running well the screws were out quite a bit.
If your manifold vacuum is too painful to acquire you can adjust the mixture screws to highest idle as you back the throttle stop out. If I am not checking the vacuum in the correct spot please let me know the best place.

My guess is it is something simple . Float level and mech advance. Good luck

I feel the same but it is very evasive, thank you for the reply. If I have any changes I will post.

Well I tried to add a pic...  maybe I'm too new?


Posted By: Heavy 488
Date Posted: Apr/06/2021 at 9:01am
Is this a new DUI with the rebuild or was it used prior?


Posted By: 75Cj5
Date Posted: Apr/06/2021 at 9:17am
Originally posted by Heavy 488 Heavy 488 wrote:

Is this a new DUI with the rebuild or was it used prior?

It is a new DUI sir.


Posted By: Heavy 488
Date Posted: Apr/06/2021 at 9:37am
Are you connected to the stock power feed with the resistance wire or are you on a full 12 volts?. 
Brand new chinese parts doesn't always mean fully functional either.


Posted By: 75Cj5
Date Posted: Apr/06/2021 at 12:40pm
Originally posted by Heavy 488 Heavy 488 wrote:

Are you connected to the stock power feed with the resistance wire or are you on a full 12 volts?. 
Brand new chinese parts doesn't always mean fully functional either.

I have a new wire harness (Painless) and used the coil power wire that shows to have 12V with the ignition on as the power feed.


Posted By: iapexl8r
Date Posted: Apr/06/2021 at 8:17pm
Ok the vac port you should be checking vacuum from is listed in the instructions as full manifold vacuum. As seen here  https://static.summitracing.com/global/images/instructions/qft-199r11202.pdf" rel="nofollow - https://static.summitracing.com/global/images/instructions/qft-199r11202.pdf  . It looks like it is the inner of the two fittinGs.
 One other thing that came to Mind Is.what did your distributor gear look like when you pulled it?
Does your engine have a good ground strap? 
Which harness did you put in the car? If you have a voltmeter check to verify 12 volts at coil.
1.5 to two turns out is a standard starting point for mixture screws on every carb I have ever messed with.
-chris



Posted By: BassBoat
Date Posted: Apr/07/2021 at 8:55am
A common problem with Holley carburetors is a backfire will damage the power valve.  I'm guessing somewhere along the tuning you got it too lean and blew the power valve.  With the power valve blown it is open all the time, adding fuel for wide F open whether you are or not.  A test to see if power valve is blown is to turn the idle mixture screws all the way in.  If it doesn't die, the power valve is bad.  I have had more frequent problems with power valves even without a backfire which I blame on the inferiority of gasoline with ethanol.
Secondly the HEI distributors are notorious for failing distributor gears.  I just bought a 304 car that had bad distributor gears and some of your symptoms are familar.  Goes from running pretty good, to popping and backfiring.  My problem was the distributor would jump a tooth or two, and I chased the timing for a while before I pulled the distributor to rebuild and recurve.  The gear damage was then obvious.  Hope that isn't your problem.  
My distributor gear failed because the timing sprocket bled off all of the oil that is supposed to lubricate the distributor gears.  As my dear friend Phat said, "of course its the timing gear (bleeding off oil) they haven't made one right in 20 years".  So if you take the timing cover off again, delete the slots on teh timing sprocket.
good luck.


Posted By: 75Cj5
Date Posted: Apr/07/2021 at 9:57am
Originally posted by iapexl8r iapexl8r wrote:

Ok the vac port you should be checking vacuum from is listed in the instructions as full manifold vacuum. As seen here  https://static.summitracing.com/global/s/instructions/qft-199r11202.pdf - https://static.summitracing.com/global/images/instructions/qft-199r11202.pdf . It looks like it is the inner of the two fittings. Ok this is NOT where I checked the vacuum, once i get it buttoned back up I will use this port. thank you!
 One other thing that came to mind is what did your distributor gear look like when you pulled it?
Does your engine have a good ground strap? The gears look good, there is good grove contact visibility, I will also double check the ground straps but last check they were making good bare metal contact from block to frame.
Which harness did you put in the car? If you have a voltmeter check to verify 12 volts at coil.  It is Painless P/N 10101, I have power to the coil but I have not checked the actual coil other than confirming the spark plugs were firing and they do.
1.5 to two turns out is a standard starting point for mixture screws on every carb I have ever messed with. This have been my starting point at each attempt 1-1/2 from seat. I have slowly worked my way in and out to the point I was scared they were going to fall out and to the point the engine wants to die.
-chris

Thank you Chris!



Posted By: 75Cj5
Date Posted: Apr/07/2021 at 10:04am
Originally posted by BassBoat BassBoat wrote:

A common problem with Holley carburetors is a backfire will damage the power valve.  I'm guessing somewhere along the tuning you got it too lean and blew the power valve.  With the power valve blown it is open all the time, adding fuel for wide F open whether you are or not.  A test to see if power valve is blown is to turn the idle mixture screws all the way in.  If it doesn't die, the power valve is bad.  I have had more frequent problems with power valves even without a backfire which I blame on the inferiority of gasoline with ethanol. This sounds very possible and I will check this once it is button back up and "running", I have only put in ethanol free fuel... now that brings up another question.. it is 93 octane.... would that cause any issues?
Secondly the HEI distributors are notorious for failing distributor gears.  I just bought a 304 car that had bad distributor gears and some of your symptoms are familiar.  Goes from running pretty good, to popping and backfiring.  My problem was the distributor would jump a tooth or two, and I chased the timing for a while before I pulled the distributor to rebuild and recurve.  The gear damage was then obvious.  Hope that isn't your problem.  There is no damage to the gear so I will assume I am good on that... it does sound like it could pass for the same problem though.
My distributor gear failed because the timing sprocket bled off all of the oil that is supposed to lubricate the distributor gears.  As my dear friend Phat said, "of course its the timing gear (bleeding off oil) they haven't made one right in 20 years".  So if you take the timing cover off again, delete the slots on the timing sprocket. By chance do you have any visual reference you can share on this? I have noticed there is oil on the timing gear when I remove the distributor so it might be alright..?
good luck.

Thanks you!


Posted By: iapexl8r
Date Posted: Apr/07/2021 at 1:29pm
bass boat mentioned the power valve. this may be a problem, but most newer (as of 1995) have have  power valve protection built in them.

        once you get the motor to idle,  you can time the motor to total mechanical advance. assuming you have a timing light with an adjustment for advance.. to do this you would dial in 32 deg (thats what I would do for your set up) ) on the timing light, run the rpms up until the mark in the harmonic balancer stops moving and then rotate the dist to line up the harmonic balancer mark  to the zero mark on the timing chain cover . basically what you are doing is opening up the flyweights in the dist via centrifugal force and setting the timing there. then take not of where you started timing at idle.

on another note how much are the timing marks moving around at idle?


Posted By: 75Cj5
Date Posted: Apr/07/2021 at 1:50pm
Originally posted by iapexl8r iapexl8r wrote:

bass boat mentioned the power valve. this may be a problem, but most newer (as of 1995) have have  power valve protection built in them.

        once you get the motor to idle,  you can time the motor to total mechanical advance. assuming you have a timing light with an adjustment for advance.. to do this you would dial in 32 deg (thats what I would do for your set up) ) on the timing light, run the rpms up until the mark in the harmonic balancer stops moving and then rotate the dist to line up the harmonic balancer mark  to the zero mark on the timing chain cover . basically what you are doing is opening up the flyweights in the dist via centrifugal force and setting the timing there. then take not of where you started timing at idle.

on another note how much are the timing marks moving around at idle?

I am using an Innova inductive timing light.... Should I look at upgrading this? The DUI Distributor manufacture recommended finding an older dial in timing light.

Any time I could ever get the engine to run smooth and perform close to normal the timing mark would hit very consistent at idle, HOWEVER, also at idle the mark would be at approximately the 8 O'clock position as if you were standing directly in front of the balancer facing it. 


Posted By: 75Cj5
Date Posted: Apr/07/2021 at 2:19pm
Talking about the power valve reminded me of something that might be very key in this... Sorry this is just coming to mind... 

when the engine idles it pops through the carb, if I am able to bring up the RPM's the popping will reduce and subside until it is brought back to idle.


Posted By: PacerLarry
Date Posted: Apr/07/2021 at 4:03pm
Just a thought, are you hooking the timing light up to the #1 wire (drivers side) and not #2 by mistake? 
#2 fires just before #1 and the timing light would indicate a lot of advance when the motor is running smoothly like you said was happening. 


Posted By: iapexl8r
Date Posted: Apr/07/2021 at 8:41pm
The Inova timing light comes in many different varieties, if yours has a dial or a digital screen, it is fine. If it has neither you will probably need to upgrade 
https://youtu.be/dRA4_7N7rSc" rel="nofollow - https://youtu.be/dRA4_7N7rSc  


Posted By: PHAT69AMX
Date Posted: Apr/07/2021 at 9:52pm
Triple check and make absolutely sure Plug Wires #5 & #7 are not crossed or swapped at the plugs and/or at the cap...  I did it more than once... .

-------------


Link to a http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MySiKQsmWxU" rel="nofollow - Short YouTube Burnout Video



Posted By: 75Cj5
Date Posted: Apr/08/2021 at 8:23am
Originally posted by PacerLarry PacerLarry wrote:

Just a thought, are you hooking the timing light up to the #1 wire (drivers side) and not #2 by mistake? 
#2 fires just before #1 and the timing light would indicate a lot of advance when the motor is running smoothly like you said was happening. 

I have it on the driver side front plug wire, and trying to keep it clear of the other wires as well. 


Posted By: 75Cj5
Date Posted: Apr/08/2021 at 8:25am
Originally posted by iapexl8r iapexl8r wrote:

The Inova timing light comes in many different varieties, if yours has a dial or a digital screen, it is fine. If it has neither you will probably need to upgrade 
https://youtu.be/dRA4_7N7rSc - https://youtu.be/dRA4_7N7rSc 

Ok, mine just has the on/off button. 


Posted By: 75Cj5
Date Posted: Apr/08/2021 at 8:29am
Originally posted by PHAT69AMX PHAT69AMX wrote:

Triple check and make absolutely sure Plug Wires #5 & #7 are not crossed or swapped at the plugs and/or at the cap...  I did it more than once... .


Will do Sir.

Just to confirm, my manual shows this as the firing order: 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2

Fire wall / back

8 7
6 5
4 3
2 1

distributor cap / front 


Posted By: 75Cj5
Date Posted: Apr/08/2021 at 8:31am
Does everyone feel that I am ok with 21 pins between the cam and crank gear dots when the cam is clocked at the 3 o'clock position?


Posted By: iapexl8r
Date Posted: Apr/08/2021 at 8:03pm
The timing mark on the lower sprocket should be at 12:00 o’clock and the upper gear should be at 6 o’clock. So they line up . Your timing set should have instructions usually the o mark is zero and the little triangle  is advance and the square is retarded. You probably want the o mark .
Like this  https://static.summitracing.com/global/images/instructions/edl-7800series-performer-linktim.pdf" rel="nofollow - https://static.summitracing.com/global/images/instructions/edl-7800series-performer-linktim.pdf


Posted By: 75Cj5
Date Posted: Apr/09/2021 at 7:21am
Originally posted by iapexl8r iapexl8r wrote:

The timing mark on the lower sprocket should be at 12:00 o’clock and the upper gear should be at 6 o’clock. So they line up . Your timing set should have instructions usually the o mark is zero and the little triangle  is advance and the square is retarded. You probably want the o mark .
Like this  https://static.summitracing.com/global/s/instructions/edl-7800series-perer-tim.pdf - https://static.summitracing.com/global/images/instructions/edl-7800series-performer-linktim.pdf

Yes Sir, I did that for installation. My manual says to check by rotating the crank until the cam gear dot is in the 3 o'clock position, then to count the pins from dot to dot. Manual specifically calls out 20 pins but also says 20 or 21 pins is acceptable. I'm just moving forward with the 21 pin count.

Thank you!


Posted By: 75Cj5
Date Posted: Apr/09/2021 at 7:34am
For any of you that are following this, I have buttoned up the timing cover and re-installed the distributor.
I re-installed the plug wires and double checked the wires are all going to proper positions on motor and distributor cap.
I have the mixture screws on the carb 1-1/2 turns out from soft seated position.

I have changed the amount of initial timing from 5* to 10* BTDC (ATDC on the timing cover)... this is really the only change I have made thus far.

I am going to get the coolant back in this afternoon and give her another try... 

Any other suggestions before this evening are always welcome.


Thanks for all that have participated in this thread thus far, I really appreciate it.


Posted By: 75Cj5
Date Posted: Apr/09/2021 at 5:53pm
I just started it and it runs like crap still... turned the mixture screws all the way in and it will still start.

I replaced the power valve and still have the exact same result. 

Spits and pops in carb and now back firing through exhaust... 


The exhaust backfire is the only thing new.


Posted By: iapexl8r
Date Posted: Apr/09/2021 at 9:15pm
When your previously verified TDC did you verify it by running #1 piston up to TDC on the compression stroke verified by a piece of wire ran through the spark plug hole touching the top of the piston while turning the crank and watching the wire rise to TDC then fall as it passesTDC And back to the center of the rise and fall, then once the piston is verified  at TDC Look at the harmonic balancer mark, it should line up with the timing chain cover Mark. To find the compression stroke you can turn the engine with #1 spark plug removed and someone’s finger in the spark plug hole and when the compression pushes the finger off the hole that’s the compression stroke. Then after the balancer marks are verified, while at TDC verify the rotor is pointing to the electrode on the dist cap that is going to the #1 spark plug

Another thing to do is slap another carb on temporary to eliminate the carb being the issue, a carb is an easy one a lot of car guys have a spare carb maybe you can borrow one.

Also


If you have one of those infra laser temp guns you can check each exhaust manifold exit from the cyl for temp to verify no cold cylinders. In a pinch a bic pen with the cap on while the engine is running will slide from the heat and will not slide on cool cyl. 

The spits and pops in carb really sounds like timing.   we have all been there it can be frustrating, I hope my advice helps I try to over explain things I am not trying to be anything but helpful. The people on this forum have helped me many times.. yea you PHAT69AMX! Lol

-chris


Posted By: 75Cj5
Date Posted: Apr/10/2021 at 6:43am
Originally posted by iapexl8r iapexl8r wrote:

When your previously verified TDC did you verify it by running #1 piston up to TDC on the compression stroke verified by a piece of wire ran through the spark plug hole touching the top of the piston while turning the crank and watching the wire rise to TDC then fall as it passesTDC And back to the center of the rise and fall, then once the piston is verified  at TDC Look at the harmonic balancer mark, it should line up with the timing chain cover Mark. To find the compression stroke you can turn the engine with #1 spark plug removed and someone’s finger in the spark plug hole and when the compression pushes the finger off the hole that’s the compression stroke. Then after the balancer marks are verified, while at TDC verify the rotor is pointing to the electrode on the dist cap that is going to the #1 spark plug

Another thing to do is slap another carb on temporary to eliminate the carb being the issue, a carb is an easy one a lot of car guys have a spare carb maybe you can borrow one.

Also


If you have one of those infra laser temp guns you can check each exhaust manifold exit from the cyl for temp to verify no cold cylinders. In a pinch a bic pen with the cap on while the engine is running will slide from the heat and will not slide on cool cyl. 

The spits and pops in carb really sounds like timing.   we have all been there it can be frustrating, I hope my advice helps I try to over explain things I am not trying to be anything but helpful. The people on this forum have helped me many times.. yea you PHAT69AMX! Lol

-chris

I am beyond grateful for your advice, and yes this is sooo frustrating...  I did follow your procedure on finding TDC (I have also used a piston stop to ensure the timing mark on the balancer is in the correct position). I have second guessed myself everytime now but when I verify I did this the correct way I find that it is correct.

I am going to walk away for a couple days and look for another carb to try out I hate to think a brand new carb is already junk but it would not surprise me. 

I will be watching this thread and let you guys know if things change. Thanks again!!


Posted By: 6PakBee
Date Posted: Apr/10/2021 at 9:03am
Please stop with the green.  It makes it hard to read with these old eyeballs!!


-------------
Roger Gazur
1969 'B' Scheme SC/Rambler
1970 RWB 4-spd Machine
1970 Sonic Silver auto AMX

All project cars.

Forum Cockroach


Posted By: 75Cj5
Date Posted: Apr/10/2021 at 1:36pm
Originally posted by 6PakBee 6PakBee wrote:

Please stop with the green.  It makes it hard to read with these old eyeballs!!

Will do.


Posted By: 75Cj5
Date Posted: Apr/13/2021 at 2:31pm
Well, it is looking like the cam has one or some lobes wiped...

I'm taking it down this weekend to confirm.



Posted By: 75Cj5
Date Posted: Apr/25/2021 at 2:57pm
Originally posted by 75Cj5 75Cj5 wrote:

I am a new member and would like to first thank all of you for taking the time to read my post. I have had a challenging time getting my 304 up and running correctly. I am going to try to explain my issues without boring the life out of you.

1975 Cj5- AMC 304 - Stage 2 Cam - Edlebrock Performer intake - DUI Distributor - Long tube Hedman Headers - (Holley) Brawler Carburetor 600 cfm (vacuum advance) - everything else is stock.

Upon initial startup from complete rebuild I could never get the timing mark to line up in and consistent manner with a timing light.  I timed it by ear and by how the engine performed and it was almost perfect. Easy to start and good drivability. It did have some lag when accelerating, this is when it all went down hill. 

I tried to do a little carb tuning and when I put the vacuum gage on it held steady at "wrong valve timing" at idle but it I revved slightly it would be in the green. (I figured this was ok since the cam is slightly bigger and the carburetor might be a tad too big for this motor. 

Once I started making small adjustments with the mixture screws and the timing again things went south... I now have a popping in the carburetor and it will not go away, nor will it get even close to starting easily or idling nicely as before. (my spark plugs foul in a matter of minutes, even when I try to lean the carb out as far as possible)  

I had checked, rechecked and checked again that the motor was set at TDC correctly and every time I had myself convinced I screwed up and set it wrong... Each time it check out correct...

Yesterday I took the timing cover off to check yet again that TDC is correct. When I clock the cam gear at 3 o'clock I have 21 pins from the dot on the cam gear to the dot on the crank gear.  The manual says this is acceptable but is it really??

I did not complete a full inspection of all the push rods yet but felt of them and there does not seem to be any anomalies there yet. 

The only other thing I have yet to think of was my fuel delivery, I have a small Holley electric fuel pump that I tested and without the engine running it is pushing close to 7 psi.  I have the Holley Red fuel pump coming in today and plan to switch those out...

It really feels like a timing issue to me but from what I can tell everything is set in accordance with the manual... I'm at a loss.... 

Problem identified. I am pretty sure the valve is locked up. Lots of work to do now... 
 




-------------
1975 CJ5
AMC 304



Print Page | Close Window

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.03 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Copyright ©2001-2019 Web Wiz Ltd. - https://www.webwiz.net