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Exhaust manifold to pipe dount adapter

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Forum Name: AMC V8 Engine Repair and Modifications
Forum Description: AMC-made V8 engine mechanical, ignition and fuel from basic repair to high-perf modifications
URL: https://theamcforum.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=107591
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Topic: Exhaust manifold to pipe dount adapter
Posted By: 1982AMCConcord
Subject: Exhaust manifold to pipe dount adapter
Date Posted: Sep/22/2020 at 1:24pm
Hello all.

I am using early model full length OEM free flow exhaust manifolds on my Concord's 304 and I'm wondering if I need to use the exhaust manifold to pipe donut adapters. The reason for me wondering about this because the exhaust manifold seems to be ticking really loud on the pass side and when I went to make sure they were seated in place I realized the exhaust shop didn't install any. From what I can see they did use the thin crush washer with the blue circles I'm pretty sure they're not adequate. Are these the correct ones? They go on both sides correct? Do I need the washer gaskets with the  blue circles as well? Also... I have 2&1/4 size pipe. Thank you.









Replies:
Posted By: 1948kaiser
Date Posted: Sep/22/2020 at 5:07pm
that is a flange on the end and not flat?


Posted By: Kreep
Date Posted: Sep/23/2020 at 6:50am
I just used the donuts that looked like the ones in the Mahle pictures, but they didn't hold up well to lots of flex and abuse until I found some old stock solid steel donuts at the local exhaust shop.

Did the shop install the correct inlet to the exhaust pipe? It has to match the donut or it won't seal.

I wouldn't bother with the blue rings unless you have a sealing problem between the manifold and donut.


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1982 Jeep CJ-7
http://theamcforum.com/forum/basically-stock-cj7_topic106501.html
https://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/jeep-hardcore-tech/1361601-basically-stock-cj-7-a.html


Posted By: 390amx1
Date Posted: Sep/23/2020 at 7:54am
Hard to tell exactly your setup, however my 72 free flow dogleg manifolds with 2-1/4" pipe uses Fel Pro 60103-1 gaskets.  Google it - they come up all over and can be found for under $5 online...

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69 BBB 390 Tremec 5-speed AMX (finally got it to where I want it and no place to go!)
08 Zo6 Corvette
18 Fiesta ST
19 Fiesta ST
08 Ram 1500 longbed
08 Yamaha Supercharged 235HP SHO Crusier Jet Ski's


Posted By: 390amx1
Date Posted: Sep/23/2020 at 8:05am
I happen to be in an exhaust projec tright now...  The Fel pro 60103-1 is 2-1/8" as I mentioned for some manifolds and for the Machine and possibly later free flows could be Fel Pro 60538 (2-1/4").  I guess it would be a question of which fits best based on your manifold year.  My 60103 is a little loose in my manifold, I'm starting to wonder if I need a 2-1/4" so I just ordered one to try it. 

-------------
69 BBB 390 Tremec 5-speed AMX (finally got it to where I want it and no place to go!)
08 Zo6 Corvette
18 Fiesta ST
19 Fiesta ST
08 Ram 1500 longbed
08 Yamaha Supercharged 235HP SHO Crusier Jet Ski's


Posted By: Nor Cal CJ5
Date Posted: Sep/23/2020 at 1:58pm
Are you using a exhaust flapper valve on the passenger side?  These changed from 2-1/4" to 2" in 1974.

Your 1982 Concord probably came with a 2" flapper valve which still can be found.  The 2-1/4" one are harder to locate for the earlier manifolds.

So on your passenger side you have a pre 1974 exhaust manifold, re-using a 2" flapper valve, and a 2" exhaust pipe - right?  

You need a flat gasket from the exhaust manifold to flapper, and a properly sized doughnut washer on the flapper to exhaust pipe.

Did your concord come with a V8 originally???

Show us a picture.


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1972 CJ5 304 2 barrel 3 speed


Posted By: 1982AMCConcord
Date Posted: Sep/23/2020 at 8:31pm
Hey everyone... Sorry it took so long to get back here... It's been a heck of a day... Thanks for insight and info on the FelPro Gaskets. I tried to get under my car and take pictures... They didn't turn out really great but I don't have access to my jack right now... Anyway..  I can see what they did. They didn't have the right donuts and they must have used those thin gaskets by themselves. Unfortunately... They've just turned brittle and are falling apart in my hand. As far as the size goes... All I know is that my pipe is 2&1/4 and I'm using the standard free flow exhaust manifolds from a full size car. They are not the Rebel Machine version. So I think I need the 2 &1/4 version... Right? I'm not really sure though guys. 

Driver's side



Pass. side





This is a bad picture but you can see where the chunk fell off and that there's no donut in there.



NorCal... You are correct. My 82 Concord did not come with a V8. 1979 was the last year for a 304 in the Concord. I v8 swapped my car late last year with a 304 out of a 72 Javelin. The exhaust manifolds I'm using are the standard sized stock free flows from a full size car. They are not the Rebel Machine or the smaller late model small car version that had a log manifold on the pass. side. I had to clearance my strut rod bracket for it to fit on that side. For further details you can check out my build thread here.

http://theamcforum.com/forum/1982-amc-concord-project-sedate-sedan-sleeper_topic101799.html" rel="nofollow - http://theamcforum.com/forum/1982-amc-concord-project-sedate-sedan-sleeper_topic101799.html



Posted By: 390amx1
Date Posted: Sep/24/2020 at 7:18am
Fel pro says use the 2-1/8" which is what I have on my 72 manifolds.  However, like I mentioned they don't fit tightly and don't "snap" into the manifold like the old ones did and one side leaks ever so slightly at the manifold/donut interface I believe.  It appears the 2-1/8" donuts seal fine on the exhaust pipe side.  So I just ordered the 2-1/4" to see if they fit tighter into the manifold and help with that leak.  If the 2-1/4" don't fit the manifold then my plan is to go back to the 2-1/8" and use high temp copper RTV stuff between the manifold and the donut.  Honestly, I never had so much trouble with this sealing over the 30+ years I've had the car....

-------------
69 BBB 390 Tremec 5-speed AMX (finally got it to where I want it and no place to go!)
08 Zo6 Corvette
18 Fiesta ST
19 Fiesta ST
08 Ram 1500 longbed
08 Yamaha Supercharged 235HP SHO Crusier Jet Ski's


Posted By: FSJunkie
Date Posted: Sep/25/2020 at 3:50am
Don't get the Fel-Pro ones. They are made of a blue paper-like material that turns into powdery ash once it gets hot. Then it blows out and leaks. I've driven myself to the edge of insanity trying to keep them sealed. 

Get sintered graphite ones made by Walker. You can order them from any NAPA. Walker's part numbers are also NAPA's part numbers.

Walker/NAPA part number 31507. 

Exhaust gaskets went to crap when they stopped putting Asbestos in them. 




-------------
'66 Marlin: 327/T10/3.54 Twin Grip
'72 Wagoneer: 360/TH400/3.31
'73 Ambassador: 360/TF727/3.15
'77 Hornet: 232/TF904/2.73
'84 Eagle: 258/TF998/2.35


Posted By: 390amx1
Date Posted: Sep/25/2020 at 5:40am
The Fel Pro's I mentioned above are not blue whatever. They are 100% metallic and if I didn't know better would say they are a lead alloy with asbestos in them of some type.  Of course with todays regulations they aren't but they are definitely solid....

-------------
69 BBB 390 Tremec 5-speed AMX (finally got it to where I want it and no place to go!)
08 Zo6 Corvette
18 Fiesta ST
19 Fiesta ST
08 Ram 1500 longbed
08 Yamaha Supercharged 235HP SHO Crusier Jet Ski's


Posted By: amx007
Date Posted: Sep/25/2020 at 6:56am
I’m looking for 390amx 
your not him I see as u have a 1 after 
he sold me parts I did not get 


-------------
dream red white and blue
1968 Chicago auto show amx 290 4 speed
1969 driver Amx 290 auto


Posted By: FSJunkie
Date Posted: Sep/26/2020 at 3:26am
Yeah, the Fel-Pro 60103-1. That's what I am talking about. I bought some last week. 

I've blown out probably a dozen of them on various engines, yet not one of the sintered graphite type ones has blown out. It's enough to convince me. 


-------------
'66 Marlin: 327/T10/3.54 Twin Grip
'72 Wagoneer: 360/TH400/3.31
'73 Ambassador: 360/TF727/3.15
'77 Hornet: 232/TF904/2.73
'84 Eagle: 258/TF998/2.35


Posted By: 73hornut
Date Posted: Sep/26/2020 at 11:51am
Victor reines 7201, make sure it's all steel.

-------------
71 Javelin
74 Gremlin
79 Spirit AMX
Rogue Valley Rumblers
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Posted By: 1982AMCConcord
Date Posted: Sep/26/2020 at 2:31pm
Originally posted by FSJunkie FSJunkie wrote:

Yeah, the Fel-Pro 60103-1. That's what I am talking about. I bought some last week. 

I've blown out probably a dozen of them on various engines, yet not one of the sintered graphite type ones has blown out. It's enough to convince me. 

Hi everyone... I ordered the NAPA/WALKER version that was suggested. I'll find out if they work on Monday!


Posted By: electricbluesc/360
Date Posted: Sep/27/2020 at 1:53am
Originally posted by amx007 amx007 wrote:

I’m looking for 390amx 
your not him I see as u have a 1 after 
he sold me parts I did not get 


Your looking for Ryan/ 3904spd on this forum


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sc/360 hornet


Posted By: bbgjc
Date Posted: Sep/27/2020 at 6:18am
Try looking through the Rem Flex catalog.  They make excellent gaskets.  I use the exhaust manifold to head gaskets all the time and they never leak.



Posted By: 390amx1
Date Posted: Sep/28/2020 at 5:59am
this is the Fel Pro 60538.  all metal.  worked great on my passage side.  didn't work well on my drivers side.  I guess its all in how the flare on the exhaust pipe is formed.


-------------
69 BBB 390 Tremec 5-speed AMX (finally got it to where I want it and no place to go!)
08 Zo6 Corvette
18 Fiesta ST
19 Fiesta ST
08 Ram 1500 longbed
08 Yamaha Supercharged 235HP SHO Crusier Jet Ski's


Posted By: 1982AMCConcord
Date Posted: Oct/26/2020 at 2:14pm
Originally posted by 390amx1 390amx1 wrote:

this is the Fel Pro 60538.  all metal.  worked great on my passage side.  didn't work well on my drivers side.  I guess its all in how the flare on the exhaust pipe is formed.

390amx1... I apologise... I am not being notified of replies to any of my posts and forgot to check back to this sooner.

So what you have there is the donut necessary for the passenger side when the heat riser has been deleted. It's thicker than the standard donut that the heat riser uses when it's in place still. 

https://www.oreillyauto.com/detail/b/nickson-4449/gaskets-25077/exhaust-25082/exhaust-pipe-connector-gasket-12216/d6e175ca4cc9/nickson-exhaust-gasket/eg24105/4538350

I am not sure what to do but have been told that since I live in a Northern climate and drive my car in the late Fall and early Spring... That I should install the heat riser to help preheat my intake manifold for colder weather driving. While I do not drive the car in the snow I do drive it into the 30-40's as long as the roads haven't been salted yet.

I've also been advised that I could dial back my choke until the heat riser is installed. 

Can anyone tell me what the negative effects of not having a heat riser would be? I think I will have the heat riser installed but I need to collect the parts. 

Can anyone tell me what vendor offers the OEM style flange clamps that sandwich the gaskets into place on the flange properly?

Thanks



Posted By: FSJunkie
Date Posted: Oct/27/2020 at 2:26am
I've generally found that the difference between how these engines run with a properly functioning and installed heat damper, and no heat damper at all, is not noticeable. 

I personally try to keep heat dampers on my engines because I place my faith in original engineering, but it's not for everyone. I certainly have some engines without heat dampers and they've behaved just fine even in sub zero temperatures. Would they be better with a heat damper? Who knows. 

It's important to retighten the bolts on whatever exhaust manifold doughnut gasket you choose. Most gasket materials crush as they go through their first few heat cycles. Failing to retighten often results in leaks down the road that only get worse and can only be remedied by replacing the gasket again. I know that the Fel-Pro blue ones for instance, need retightened after each heat cycle for the first few heat cycles and slowly need retightened less and less over time. It's like you retighten them after the first ten miles, then after the first 100 miles, then after the first 1000 miles, then the first 3000 miles, and then you're usually good to go. But if you miss any one of those, the gasket blows out and leaks forever...which is why I hate them.

I much prefer my engines that do not use exhaust gaskets at all but rather use a direct metal on metal connection for the pipe flange. No gasket equals nothing to burn out, blow out, and leak. It seals from day one and it stays sealed without retightening. 



-------------
'66 Marlin: 327/T10/3.54 Twin Grip
'72 Wagoneer: 360/TH400/3.31
'73 Ambassador: 360/TF727/3.15
'77 Hornet: 232/TF904/2.73
'84 Eagle: 258/TF998/2.35


Posted By: 401MATCOUPE
Date Posted: Oct/27/2020 at 4:55am
This is an interesting subject and I found some strange factory combinations recently. 

1.   In 1974 on they omitted the flat gasket between the heat riser valve and the exhaust manifold.   

2.  I have had many customer request to remove the gaskets due to blown gasket issues, but the key is.....you have to resurface the manifold completely flat to get effective area between the exhaust manifold and the heat riser.....

3.  If you are starting from scratch, I have NEVER had issue with removing the heat riser valve.  I had a set of NOS Trendetter head pipes years ago and they were made to have the heat riser removed....

4.  Cars that infrequently driven commonly have frozen or leaking heat riser valves, mostly dead stock cars.   My solve for this is to gut out the flapper , weld the holes in heat riser closed.  Resuraface the ralve flat on each side.  I drove my 69 AMX this way for 10+ years every day (40K miles) NEVER had a issue with leaking or drive ability year round from -30F to +110F.....dead stock 343 4V, 4 speed car.

5.  Just like blocking of the carb cross over heat in the intake/heads, the heat riser delete/flapper removal has the same effect.......heck the factory made a Heat Riser Blocking Intake Gasket as a Group 19 part.

Hope this helps.


-------------
Ross K. Peterson
68X,GoPac,343,AT,52A(1stCar)
68X,GoPac,390,4sp,52A
69X,GoPac,390,4sp,64A
70X,GoPac,390,4sp,87A,8
70X,GoPac,390,4sp,BBO,8
70 Jav SST,390,AT,BSO
74MatX,401,AT,Prototype
74MatX,401,AT


Posted By: bigbad69
Date Posted: Oct/27/2020 at 7:05am
Originally posted by FSJunkie FSJunkie wrote:

...I place my faith in original engineering, but it's not for everyone.
There are design constraints attached to all engineering projects. The constraints given to the factory engineers may not apply in your case. That is why so many people modify their cars from the OE design. The key is in knowing what you doing. Making a change because because it sounds sexy, or Bob next door did it, may yield disappointing results. You need to understand the starting point design, where you want to go, and what you need to do to achieve your goal. You may luck out making ad hoc changes but it's not good design practice.

If sticking to the factory design works for you, that's great, but it does not automatically invalidate someone else making modifications to suit their purposes.


-------------
My garage:
2018 300 5.7 - daily driver
2006 Sierra 4.8 - backup vehicle and sometimes hauler
1969 BBO Javelin 390 T10 - my neverending project


Posted By: purple72Gremlin
Date Posted: Oct/27/2020 at 7:30am
Originally posted by bigbad69 bigbad69 wrote:

Originally posted by FSJunkie FSJunkie wrote:

...I place my faith in original engineering, but it's not for everyone.
There are design constraints attached to all engineering projects. The constraints given to the factory engineers may not apply in your case. That is why so many people modify their cars from the OE design. The key is in knowing what you doing. Making a change because because it sounds sexy, or Bob next door did it, may yield disappointing results. You need to understand the starting point design, where you want to go, and what you need to do to achieve your goal. You may luck out making ad hoc changes but it's not good design practice.

If sticking to the factory design works for you, that's great, but it does not automatically invalidate someone else making modifications to suit their purposes.
Amen.


Posted By: 1982AMCConcord
Date Posted: Oct/27/2020 at 4:38pm
Hi everyone. Thanks for your insights. My heat cross over is not blocked off and I do not want to take the intake off to do so. And since I drive the car in the cold weather... I've decided that I will reinstall the heat riser because I think this will help with cold weather operation if the car. 

Does anyone know if the original style flange clamps are still available? 


Posted By: Nor Cal CJ5
Date Posted: Oct/29/2020 at 1:54pm
Originally posted by 1982AMCConcord 1982AMCConcord wrote:

Hi everyone. Thanks for your insights. My heat cross over is not blocked off and I do not want to take the intake off to do so. And since I drive the car in the cold weather... I've decided that I will reinstall the heat riser because I think this will help with cold weather operation if the car. 

Does anyone know if the original style flange clamps are still available? 

Flange clamps?


-------------
1972 CJ5 304 2 barrel 3 speed


Posted By: Trader
Date Posted: Oct/29/2020 at 2:09pm
I believe this is what your looking for:
https://www.quadratec.com/search/exhaust%20damper" rel="nofollow - https://www.quadratec.com/search/exhaust%20damper


Posted By: 1982AMCConcord
Date Posted: Oct/29/2020 at 7:26pm
Originally posted by Nor Cal CJ5 Nor Cal CJ5 wrote:

Originally posted by 1982AMCConcord 1982AMCConcord wrote:


Does anyone know if the original style flange clamps are still available? 

Flange clamps?

Nor Cal... Sorry... Didn't know what to call them but the exhaust shop made the ones that are on there now and they are just flat plates... I thought the stock flanges would work better when I get them to install the heat riser.






Posted By: 1982AMCConcord
Date Posted: Oct/29/2020 at 7:30pm
Originally posted by Trader Trader wrote:

I believe this is what your looking for:
https://www.quadratec.com/search/exhaust%20damper" rel="nofollow - https://www.quadratec.com/search/exhaust%20damper

Thanks Trader. I'm going to buy the damper kit and the gasket yes... I was asking about the OEM style flanges though... I just didn't know what to call them. I think this will fix the ticking noise coming from that manifold to pipe connection. I didn't know the heat riser existed or I would've installed all this stuff the first time around. 


Posted By: n2ojoe
Date Posted: Oct/30/2020 at 7:33am
I have used these Walker "ball flanges" along with stock replacement doughnut gaskets to replace flat flanges just like you have. No heat riser valve is needed, but could be used if desired.
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/wlk-41725" rel="nofollow - https://www.summitracing.com/parts/wlk-41725


Posted By: White70JavelinSST
Date Posted: Oct/30/2020 at 10:53am
Originally posted by Trader Trader wrote:

I believe this is what your looking for:
https://www.quadratec.com/search/exhaust%20damper" rel="nofollow - https://www.quadratec.com/search/exhaust%20damper


Because I've been looking for an exhaust crossover damper for sometime this interested me greatly.

I did some research and found this particular one doesn't have a bi-metal spring, it's just a regular steel spring, so the damper doesn't function correctly, if at all.

This taken from reviews I found on Amazon about the product.

Now as far as the donut, that could be a very functional one. I didn't read anything negative about that.

Is the original part as put on new cars equipped with a bi-metal spring??


-------------
70 Javelin SST, second owner, purchased 1972


Posted By: Trader
Date Posted: Oct/30/2020 at 11:35am
To my knowledge ALL Heat Riser Dampers/Valves or Exhaust Manifold Dampers/Valves had bimetal springs.
A list of AMC/Jeep numbers: 3225006, 3238998, 3225054, 3185114.
Here is an article on operation and you can see that they were never intended to always be fully opened:
https://www.hemmings.com/stories/article/all-rise" rel="nofollow - https://www.hemmings.com/stories/article/all-rise


Posted By: 1982AMCConcord
Date Posted: Oct/30/2020 at 12:13pm
Thanks a lot for the insight guys... I have found several links for them to purchase but no local parts stores can obtain them.. not even NAPA. Even the exhaust shop I used to install my exhaust system has had trouble finding them. They said they would install it if I can locate it but they won't even try to find them anymore. So next week I am taking it back to them to see if they can fix the leak at the donut for now. But next Spring I intend on getting the heat riser installed. Although they did not recommend it... I think that for my type of driving in the colder weather .. I really need to have it. It has been 30-40 degrees where I am right now and I am driving it all the time. I intend on driving it until just before the snow flies and the salt starts hitting the ground. 

Can I ask you guys... what are the negative consequences of not having a heat riser but having a functioning heat crossover? I saw in another post where someone had so much carbon build up in the crossover port that it eventually pushed past the gasket and into the valley of the upper engine... and I definitely do not want that to happen to this engine in my engine bay. 


Posted By: Nor Cal CJ5
Date Posted: Oct/30/2020 at 12:52pm
Just a FYI:

The heat riser flapper came in 2 sizes.  The one that is more readily available is a 2" flapper valve and came on 1974 and up vehicles. The older style that matches up to the exhaust manifold you have is an earlier assembly and has a 2-1/4" flapper valve.   The Fel-Pro 60133 flat gasket works on the older style flapper valve between the flapper & the exhaust manifold.

I just went thru this with my 1972 304.  After searching for a few months, I found 2 NOS flapper units (one in England) and bought them both.  PM me if you have trouble finding one.


-------------
1972 CJ5 304 2 barrel 3 speed


Posted By: 1982AMCConcord
Date Posted: Oct/30/2020 at 12:55pm
Originally posted by Nor Cal CJ5 Nor Cal CJ5 wrote:

Just a FYI:

The heat riser flapper came in 2 sizes.  The one that is more readily available is a 2" flapper valve and came on 1974 and up vehicles. The older style that matches up to the exhaust manifold you have is an earlier assembly and has a 2-1/4" flapper valve.   The Fel-Pro 60133 flat gasket works on the older style flapper valve between the flapper & the exhaust manifold.

I just went thru this with my 1972 304.  After searching for a few months, I found 2 NOS flapper units (one in England) and bought them both.  PM me if you have trouble finding one.

Nor Cal... My engine is a 72 but I'm certain that my manifolds are 74 and later! I didn't get these manifolds with the engine. I'm pretty sure they are Jeep versions.


Posted By: Nor Cal CJ5
Date Posted: Oct/30/2020 at 12:58pm
Do you have a part number for the manifolds?  Can you measure the collector and stud spacing?

If you do have a later style exhaust manifold, you can use the later style heat riser flapper, which would be a good thing.  The later style flapper has a built in doughnut for connection to the exhaust pipe.


-------------
1972 CJ5 304 2 barrel 3 speed


Posted By: 1982AMCConcord
Date Posted: Oct/30/2020 at 1:06pm
Originally posted by Nor Cal CJ5 Nor Cal CJ5 wrote:

Do you have a part number for the manifolds?  Can you measure the collector and stud spacing?

If you do have a later style exhaust manifold, you can use the later style heat riser flapper, which would be a good thing.  The later style flapper has a built in doughnut for connection to the exhaust pipe.

I can look... Thanks for the tip... I didn't think of it even looking for a part number. I can measure the stud spacing but not the collector because their hooked up to the exhaust pipe. 


Posted By: Nor Cal CJ5
Date Posted: Oct/30/2020 at 1:14pm
Originally posted by 1982AMCConcord 1982AMCConcord wrote:

Originally posted by Nor Cal CJ5 Nor Cal CJ5 wrote:

Originally posted by 1982AMCConcord 1982AMCConcord wrote:


Does anyone know if the original style flange clamps are still available? 

Flange clamps?

Nor Cal... Sorry... Didn't know what to call them but the exhaust shop made the ones that are on there now and they are just flat plates... I thought the stock flanges would work better when I get them to install the heat riser.





Yes - The flat one was installed by the exhaust shop because you didn't have a flapper valve and they probably had to extend the exhaust length to compensate for the lack of the flapper.  The exhaust shop really has no idea of when to use a flat flange or a ball flange.  The drivers side also originally came with a ball flange

On the exhaust manifold side of the flapper valve, you need a flat gasket, on the exhaust pipe side of the flapper, you need a ball flange as the stock flapper came with a doughnut gasket (like the Mahle in your first post).  This is the stock set up.

Check the size of your manifold - I'm sure you are going to need the older version of the flapper valve.  

Also, the thickness of the flapper valve comes into consideration when the exhaust y-pipe length is determined (whether you use a flapper or not).


-------------
1972 CJ5 304 2 barrel 3 speed


Posted By: 1982AMCConcord
Date Posted: Oct/30/2020 at 1:29pm
OK Yes.. I understand... Yup... 



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