TheAMCForum.com Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > The Garage > AMC 6 Cylinder Engine Repair and Modifications
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Oil pump drive gear
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Click for TheAMCForum Rules / Click for PDF version of Forum Rules
Your donations help keep this valuable resource free and growing. Thank you.

Oil pump drive gear

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234>
Author
Message
ramblinrev View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar

Joined: Dec/28/2008
Location: Wisconsin
Status: Offline
Points: 11468
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ramblinrev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/16/2021 at 5:22pm
Originally posted by First_Gear First_Gear wrote:

I once looked at a 58 rambler which had an aluminum block 196 engine. I had no idea they were uncommon when I looked at it. The car was misrepresented so I passed. 


That is odd, and had to have been transplanted. The aluminum block first came out in '61 and used through '64 in Classics. I still can't understand why AMC invested so much in a new block for an old design, instead of a completely new engine!
74 Hornet Hatchback X twins (since 1977)
62 American Convertible (still worth the $50 I spent in 1973!) AMCRC #513, AMO #384
70 AMX 360 4-speed (since 1981)
Back to Top
tomj View Drop Down
AMC Addicted
AMC Addicted
Avatar

Joined: Jan/27/2010
Location: earth
Status: Offline
Points: 7522
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tomj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/16/2021 at 8:34pm
Originally posted by ramblinrev ramblinrev wrote:

I still can't understand why AMC invested so much in a new block for an old design, instead of a completely new engine!

This. 

OMFG an aluminum 232 would be great!! Even an early one.

1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto
1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5
http://www.ramblerLore.com

Back to Top
farna View Drop Down
Supporter of TheAMCForum
Supporter of TheAMCForum
Avatar
Moderator Lost Dealership Project

Joined: Jul/08/2007
Location: South Carolina
Status: Offline
Points: 19610
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote farna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/18/2021 at 7:29am
The AL 196 was a good idea, just not a good time for it. In the early 60s aluminum actually cost more than cast iron. The savings was in the molds though. Aluminum engine blocks used a reusable steel mold, a sand mold had to be made for every cast iron block, so you saved all that time making all those molds.

The issues were:

1) the 196 design itself has head sealing issues to begin with, dropping an iron head on an aluminum block certainly didn't help! You still had to check/tighten head bolts every 8-10K miles. The first owner might have done it, the second and third? Not likely to even know or read the owners manual (if it was still with the car)... or care -- it's a cheap used car!

2) Anti-freeze at the time was corrosive to aluminum. You had to buy special anti-freeze that was aluminum compatible. Many frugal Rambler owners didn't. So again, first owner -- probably ok. Second and later??? Don't know/care...

Both of those combined caused overheating/sealing issues. When you have those the cast iron liners, which were unsupported at the top of the block (no deck) could shift, and you had internal corrosion from the wrong anti-freeze. All the troubles were maintenance issues, not design issues.

Now all anti-freeze is AL compatible and most engines are aluminum -- some are even die-cast like the Rambler motor. Early tech adopters always uncover the issues first!
Frank Swygert
Back to Top
tomj View Drop Down
AMC Addicted
AMC Addicted
Avatar

Joined: Jan/27/2010
Location: earth
Status: Offline
Points: 7522
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tomj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/18/2021 at 11:26pm
How on earth did you get the sleeve ends square and flat? Even fly cut, not common in cheap shops, would tend to make the tall tubes ring and chatter. I guess you could fill the space between with water to dampen (literally and metaphorically! lol) the resonances.

If I had a lot of money I'd consider it, as foolish as it is. I've given up on flatheads, as finding good cores is too difficult and expensive, even down here where for whatever reason they are plentiful.

(I know someone who has an AMC Factory NOS replacement flathead engine still in its crate!! I can't afford it. Same guy has a 1965 Classic 770 wagon V8 with bucket seats, console and twin-stick...)

1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto
1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5
http://www.ramblerLore.com

Back to Top
First_Gear View Drop Down
AMC Addicted
AMC Addicted
Avatar

Joined: Jan/18/2010
Location: Mukilteo WA
Status: Offline
Points: 644
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote First_Gear Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/18/2021 at 11:42pm
Originally posted by ramblinrev ramblinrev wrote:

Originally posted by First_Gear First_Gear wrote:

I once looked at a 58 rambler which had an aluminum block 196 engine. I had no idea they were uncommon when I looked at it. The car was misrepresented so I passed. 


That is odd, and had to have been transplanted. The aluminum block first came out in '61 and used through '64 in Classics. I still can't understand why AMC invested so much in a new block for an old design, instead of a completely new engine!

It was definitely aluminum and definitely a 58. It maybe could have been a 59. It probably was a replacement engine after all the car is over 60 years old! The car had one of those terrible bondo over rust mess paint jobs. New carpet over holes in the floor etc.. All the signs of a quick flip. Seemed to run ok though!
Back to Top
1958 rambler super View Drop Down
AMC Addicted
AMC Addicted
Avatar

Joined: Dec/10/2020
Location: Victoria BC can
Status: Offline
Points: 1191
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 1958 rambler super Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/28/2021 at 6:56pm
Hi everyone! If you have the time, can someone please instruct me on how the "regular" oiling system works and is constructed on 195.6 ohv six cylinder engines? This post is also concerning the external piping traveling up from the main oil gallery raised casting in the block, mostly it's looked like originating from the hole closest to the front of the engine next to the back of the timing cover. the piping travels up and around the rectangular inspection covers and then up to the head. On tomjs 195.6 his system is modified, and mine is not so I don't think I can use clues from those pictures, since the oil pump is modified and mine is not, and the oil pipe is not there either since his block has the oil delivery passage designed into the block.
The rambler I bot had a oil delivery system I was confused about, the pieces of it where all disassembled so I don't know how it all was connected together, and did not see the same system of piping from other 195.6 engines.....I showed tomj a picture of the oil filter canister and some of the piping I have and he said he didn't recognize it, and didn't know if it was even amc system, he said the regular system is much simpler and I'd like to use it for my rebuild 195.6, I think I might have to use the old one for now for the break in asap, be ause the engines rusting, so use the weird one now but change it later... Any time you could spare to help out a guy who wonders... Does the oil get pumped from the pump and from that part of the system does it come out and go Into the raised casting that travels along the lower part of the block, sending oil down each passage way, on the transmission end I think there is a oil pressure sensor equipment piece, threaded into that hole, in the middle above the pump is another hole, larger then the two at each end, which tomj I think said was usually plugged, at the other end is, where in pictures, I see the piping travels up and around the rectangular inspection covers and up to the valve cover area in the head, and the oil then flows through oil holes in the iron casting down through the various parts of the engine to the bottom, and to the oil pan, to start all over again. But where does the oil filter go? I don't see it in some pictures, and the piping just goes into the head... but in other pictures it is sitting on a small metal plate near where the thermostat is, does this metal pipe go into it first, and then another pipe go from the filter into the valve cover area into the head? How come tomj, you have your oil filter attatched onto the timing cover backside edge and not uptop like those other pictures? Is it because the oil flow is built into the casting? And that oil filter doesn't need to be up high for some reason? Is the oil filter in those other systems mounted at a high spot like that because gravity needs to pull the oil out of the filter more so then if it was mounted on the back of the timing cover?
Back to Top
Robm View Drop Down
AMC Fan
AMC Fan
Avatar

Joined: Jul/11/2021
Location: Ontario Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 6
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Robm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul/11/2021 at 8:54pm
Can you install the oil drive incorrectly and mess up the timing? We did a complete rebuild on a flat head and the timing seems off a bit, the cam and crank gears are lined up but the rotor seems a shade off the number 1 location on the cap. Engine is getting over heated and does not seem to rev with any real response when it even starts. We did have it idling decent but tonight we lost spark. (Auto lite dist ) everything is new in the ignition system. Tia
Back to Top
tomj View Drop Down
AMC Addicted
AMC Addicted
Avatar

Joined: Jan/27/2010
Location: earth
Status: Offline
Points: 7522
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tomj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul/11/2021 at 9:54pm
Did you index the distributor so that the rotor points to to #1 plug wire at it's TDC compression stroke? You can do that, or check it, at any time. It's not hard, you just have to be methodical.

1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto
1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5
http://www.ramblerLore.com

Back to Top
farna View Drop Down
Supporter of TheAMCForum
Supporter of TheAMCForum
Avatar
Moderator Lost Dealership Project

Joined: Jul/08/2007
Location: South Carolina
Status: Offline
Points: 19610
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote farna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul/12/2021 at 5:51am
Robm, remember, that on the 196 flathead you can't index the distributor. The oil pump drives the distributor. The drive gear is on the oil pump shaft and has a recess with an offset blade in it. The distributor shaft has a matching slot and fits in the gear. That means the dizzy only goes in one way and can't be indexed. The only adjustment is the little on the dizzy body. It was done this way so you can take the cap off then pull the entire distributor to change and adjust points, then slip it back in. The engine should crank, then just needs fine tuning. Otherwise the angled position of the dizzy in the small body 50-55 Nash Rambler/58-63 Rambler American makes it near impossible to access the points.

You don't need to time the oil pump though. Insert the distributor without the cap on with engine at TDC on compression stroke then observe where the rotor is pointing. Put the cap on then put #1 wire on where the rotor points, continue around the cap in firing order. If you don't have enough fine adjustment in the dizzy body try resetting the timing again. You may have to move #1 wire forward or back, depending on where you're running out of adjustment.

One more thing -- check the wires on the distributor since you lost spark. Also, new doesn't always mean good. Recently manufactured points and (especially) condensors for old cars have been know to not last long at all. Hard to find a GOOD set, most made in small batches by small overseas companies and quality has been questionable. You might try another condensor if the wires and contacts inside the distributor (and from dizzy to coil) are good.


Edited by farna - Jul/12/2021 at 5:55am
Frank Swygert
Back to Top
Robm View Drop Down
AMC Fan
AMC Fan
Avatar

Joined: Jul/11/2021
Location: Ontario Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 6
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Robm Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul/12/2021 at 6:59am
Thank you!!!
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.03
Copyright ©2001-2019 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.125 seconds.
All content of this site Copyright © 2018 TheAMCForum unless otherwise noted, all rights reserved.
PROBLEMS LOGGING IN or REGISTERING:
If you have problems logging in or registering, then please contact a Moderator or