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Noise/squeak question

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billd View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote billd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Noise/squeak question
    Posted: Apr/09/2015 at 7:18am
Here's a stumper - not sure if this is drivetrain or related to something else - but thought I'd see what other Eagle and/or Jeep folks thought.
Consider really hard and think really hard on exactly HOW the Eagle systems work, what is in an Eagle, and under what conditions specific things may be happening or not happening....

                   ~ The mystery of the mouse in the wheel sound ~

A year or so ago my wife was riding with me and asked about the mouse I had in the car. Puzzled I asked what she meant. She said "can't you hear it squeaking every few seconds?" Heck no, but then I didn't have my hearing aids and my hearing loss is in the upper frequencies (and as luck would have it - the range of the female human voice. Crap...)
Anyway, I didn't hear a thing but it was annoying her. Week after week while we commuted to/from work together or any time we took the baby Eagle anywhere she kept trying to get me to listen and hear it.
She described it as this - a wheel turning slowly and every so often a quick squeak, like a mouse running in a squeaky wheel.
Well, nothing was on or running and there are no rotating parts inside the car other than the speedometer head, but that's spinning faster than her description. Couldn't be wheel related and it had nothing to do with suspension as it had a very regular timing and was there on smooth roads, rough roads. Having the heater/AC blower on or off, didn't matter. I could turn the fan on high, low, or off and the sound remained exactly the same so it wasn't blower motor.

Well now I think _I_ hear it!   And she's right, it's like a very slow turning wheel that has a squeak spot. It's a quick squeak, then you can count out 3 seconds, then squeak, then count 3 seconds, squeak and so on.
Since she has retired we rarely are in this car together these days.  I drive it daily, she may be in it every few weeks, then it's a bit louder or my hearing aids are working wonders.
But - if it's the same I have noted that it is there between 30 mph and 45 mph. I've not noticed it when driving faster than 50 nor have I noticed it under about 30 mph but that's not saying it ain't there, just IF it is, it's not noticeable to me.

So- baby Eagle (SX/4) with 4.0, T5 transmission, 4 wheel drive system in 2 wheel mode, normal driving, any roads 3rd gear or 4th gear doesn't matter I often get  'squeak, 3 second silence, squeak, 3 second silence, squeak.......' and so on.

Something is turning slowly and at speeds between 30 and 45 is when it's noted.

What in an Eagle in 2wd could or would turn like that and make a regular, rhythmic periodic squeak sound?
I have a thought, knowing a bunch about Eagle systems and drive trains but am not going to sway any thinking or prejudice you with my opinion or thoughts on this just yet - I want to see if anyone else comes to a similar independent judgement on the possible causes - think really hard....
it's driving my wife nuts when she's in the car.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jayramb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/10/2015 at 5:27pm
I had one and it was a shock mount bushing. I just jumped on the bumpers and found through trial and error. I know what you mean by the erry squeeks.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote george w Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/10/2015 at 5:58pm
I assume that the squeak frequency increases and decreases with road speed, correct ?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BDCVG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/10/2015 at 9:37pm
Could there be enough airflow in Your heat vents that the blower fan is turning?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote billd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/12/2015 at 11:54am
Note that the same sound is at the exact same timing even with the blower switch on and the fan running. That way my very first thought when my wife said I had a mouse running in a wheel somewhere. I turned the blower on - nope, still there, exactly the same, blower on or off, low, medium or high (but when on high AMC ducts are so loud it masks the sound to anyone but her - keeping in mind women hear nigh frequencies even men with good hearing can't hear.

No on shock mounts - it's the same on smooth roads or roads rough enough that it generates spring squeak. The cheapy rear springs I put on several years ago require frequent shots of WD40 or chain lube to quiet them down)
It is independent of road conditions - and it's not a random sound but much of the time could be used by Beethoven himself as a metronome (now how many can tell me what that device is - no fair using Google or Bing)
Squeak...1...2...3...squeak...1...2...3...squeak... It's a squeak followed by about a 3 second pause. I did not use my stop watch but did count. The clock in the car never did work so I wasn't able to use it to count seconds but having played drums in HS band, it was pretty regular as far as frequency. 
That in itself leaves out road sounds like bumps and rattles. SX4s and Spirits have those folding rear seats that have latches that squeak on rough roads - heck even on smooth roads, and it's not that. Does the same with seats folded or up and loaded. 
Gently curves or straight roads - same sound, same timing 
The fan being pushed by wind is an excellent guess, and honestly few would really think of so even though it's not what's happening here, as far as I'm concerned, you have decent diagnostic skills in any case.

Being an old fa#% with moderate hearing loss in a car that was never quiet even when AMC pulled them off the assembly line with 0 miles on the clock, I can't say about speeds greater than about 45 as wind noise, road noise, etc. could or would drown this out but it's there for sure between about - and that's "about" with a capital "abou"  30/35 mpg, and up through 40-45 for darned sure. 

OK, I have a theory and it has to do with the Eagle drive train, specifically certain years with the "stop to shift" select drive 2wd/4wd system. 
I don't want to prejudice anyone in case I'm off my rocker (what? Again?) so right now, will leave it at that.  ;-)

Many thanks for reading and thinking about it - anyone involved with a solution will get a beer if we meet. (I've tried faxing beer in the past and it simply results in a mess.)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 68Rambler290 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/24/2015 at 7:16pm
Does The sound change or stop if you press the clutch?
 I have had throw out bearings make odd, rhythmic noises at times.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 304-dude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/24/2015 at 8:01pm
OK,  having no concept of the eagle's drive train operation, this is a wild guess...

Since you are in 2wd mode,  could there be a freewheeling affect with the output shaft on the gear box. Being either the front axle is driving the gear box,  or the gear box is rotating the shaft in a loose engagement.

The sound may be with a support bearing or dry u joint, cardan joint.

I would ask the neighbor's kid to take a trip around the block... Young ears can pin point sounds pretty good. 



Edited by 304-dude - Apr/24/2015 at 8:05pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote carnuck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/25/2015 at 4:15pm
First, do you have a vacuum front axle? If so, put a ziptie on the front driveshaft. If not, then the speedometer cable head is where I would check next. Unscrew the cable from the trans and see if it goes away. I have a similar squeak in my Comanche and I know it's the cable at the head because if I reach under and unscrew it, the noise goes away. Mine advanced to the point that it sounds like a rock in a tire at low speed (30 mph). It has 250,000+ miles on it so wear and tear are understandable.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote billd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/27/2015 at 7:03am
I think the last two are thinking along similar lines to a thought I have had. The left font axle does go directly into the carrier and spins the spiders. The right axle is disconnected and doesn't spin anything inside the front differential. However, there is a certain "Drag effect" of the hypoid lube and the spider gears in the carrier which could cause the pinion to turn and in turn, turn the front drive shaft very slowly.
I hadn't thought of a "ziptie" to hold it in place. I did crawl under it last week and was able to turn the front driveshaft freely and with no sound at all. No squeak, not a single sound out of it, quieter than a mouse (mice are noisy, just ask Yawnie the cat). That's not saying it wouldn't or couldn't make a sound on the road, just that it was quiet and smooth when turned by hand.
Even though I'm technically "Taking the car off the road" until I can get a steering sector swap for it, I did drive it and didn't hear the sound at all today so I'll have to wait for it to come back. It might have been too wet or too cold or too warm or whatever.
In any case with good weather here I could indeed use a nylon tie wrap or "zip tie" to hold the front shaft from casually turning while driving it and see.
I had also wondered about the speedometer - but am not sure how fast the gears inside the speedo head turn. It's pretty simple to lay next to the car and disconnect the cable underneath.
There's no way to disconnect it inside - not with my fingers these days. you have to remove the package tray and shove other stuff out of the way just to touch it, let alone dream about putting a finger and thumb to it to disconnect it.
In any case, the tie strap and/or disconnecting the speedometer cable are two good next tries. If it's going to Ohio this summer I've got to take care of some of these things!
It needs to be a perfect 100% reliable car with little or no chance of breakdown, odd sounds to a minimum or even GONE and SAFE. (thus the steering sector swap if I can get that done)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote billd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/27/2015 at 7:08am
Originally posted by 68Rambler290 68Rambler290 wrote:

Does The sound change or stop if you press the clutch?
 I have had throw out bearings make odd, rhythmic noises at times.


This is a very very "slow" sound. I've not tried pressing the clutch at 40 mph to see how it sounds, but I'd expect that to be a faster sound by far. This is literally steady and very very slow - 3 seconds between each tiny "squeak". You can actually imagine seeing the hamster wheel turn as it makes the sound.

The throw-out bearing is new, I'm not sure with the hydraulic clutch how close the bearing is to the clutch pressure plate "fingers" during normal driving operations. One could simply rest a foot on the pedal and see if there's any change, but with the frequency I have my doubts.
The clutch is VERY quiet during normal driving, that's the cool part, all that math and work there paid off in a smooth, nicely operating clutch. (the 4.0 and flywheel is 1/4" different than a 258 and flywheel so I have to machine a spacer and remake the clutch release bearing when I did the engine swap to keep the clutch linkage geometry correct. I also rigged a sealed bearing pilot bearing for it, no more bushing)
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