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Incorrect Master Cylinder ?

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Stingray View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stingray Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Incorrect Master Cylinder ?
    Posted: Dec/07/2021 at 8:43pm
Hi,

1966 Rogue with Wagner Drum brakes.  The port on the master cylinder clearly labelled "REAR" is connected to the front brakes.  What are the consequences of this and what problems are likely?  (I don't much of the history of the car, but rear brakes are locking up early and I have a lot of pedal travel.)

Any advice welcome!

Beer
Joe
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tomj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec/07/2021 at 10:43pm
They're symmetrical, front and rear. Often one has a larger reservoir for the fronts, often discs, but that's not a big deal, but I admit that if the larger res was to the rear brakes on my car it would annoy the crap out of me. If they're the same, doesn't matter. But may indicate some poor work was done.

soft pedal? rear lockup? I'd assume the worst and go through everything, but I imagine you are already heading that way...

1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto
1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5
http://www.ramblerLore.com

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stingray Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec/08/2021 at 12:19am
Hi tomj,

Thanks for your thoughts ...

On further reading it seems I may have the incorrect Bendix master cylinder with the rear brake line towards the front. (should be Wagner for non-power brakes with the front brake line towards the front .  It seems that there may be front and rear bore size differences in the master cylinder. 

"Midnight Rambler" suggests that it necessary to swap the brake lines if using the Bendix as it is difficult to find a replacement for the Wagner m/c. See https://theamcforum.com/forum/master-cylinder-interchange_topic63096.html

Reading the shop manual, it looks like the m/c bore is stepped, i.e. 1" on the front circuit and 7/8" on the rear.  This combined with the different wheel cylinder bore sizes 1-1/8" front and 15/16" rear might screw up the proportioning if the lines were reversed.

Perhaps others have had this problem?

Beer
Joe



Edited by Stingray - Dec/08/2021 at 12:24am
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mbwicz View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mbwicz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec/08/2021 at 5:34am
  I don't have specific knowledge of this system.  But I would think that if the M/C is stepped, the larger step would be towards the flange/firewall.  Purely from a manufacturing standpoint, making the bore larger on the front fitting and smaller for the rear fitting would be very challenging.  It is easier to make a stepped hole with the larger diameter toward the opening.
  So based on what you are saying with the different sized wheel cylinders, it would make sense that the front brakes are connected to the rear port of the M/C.
  You may be able to have your original master cylinder rebuilt, try white post restorations or John Plaskian (spelling?) in florida.
  I'm sure that you bench bled the M/C, and the lines, and have the adjusters setup correctly.  If the M/C that you installed is a 1" straight bore, then you may be getting too much pressure to the rear brakes because the system was designed for the smaller bore.  If you can't rebuild your original M/C, then you may need to install an adjustable proportioning valve in the rear brake line to manage the pressure and prevent the lockup.

Mike


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stingray Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec/08/2021 at 3:42pm
Hi mbwicz,

I had exactly the same thoughts about machining and I'm not sure I believe what I'm reading in the original TSM!  How could you assemble the pistons in a stepped bore m/c where the smaller bore is at the firewall?

In any case, my m/c has the front port labelled as "REAR" and if that was a smaller bore then machining and assembly would be OK.

The reservoirs are the same size.  Why would the port be labeled REAR if it was the same as the other port?  If it is a stepped bore then having the front and back lines swapped might cause the rears to lock up first?

Thanks for your thoughts.
Beer
Joe


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mbwicz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec/08/2021 at 4:21pm
I believe that if the front brakes are attached to the port labeled rear, it is likely that the brake performance would suffer (could be the reason for your long pedal travel). If the opposite is true, the rear brakes would overperform and likely lock up. 

Mike

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stingray Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec/08/2021 at 7:40pm
Hi Mike,

That's where my thinking is going too.

It would be great to hear from someone with direct experience of this issue!

I plan to buy some tube and fittings tomorrow and extend the lines so I can connect the front brakes to the rearmost port on the m/c and the rear brake line to the forward port that's labelled "REAR".

I'll certainly post anything I learn.

Beer
Joe
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tomj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec/09/2021 at 12:26am
Originally posted by Stingray Stingray wrote:

Reading the shop manual, it looks like the m/c bore is stepped, i.e. 1" on the front circuit and 7/8" on the rear.  

Woah! Sorry for jumping to conclusions about symmetrical bores. 

Are you sure of what's in there? That asymmetrical master cyl is probably very hard to find -- if someone stuck a Bendix in there it could be for that reason. If so chances are it's symmetrical bore.

The front 1" bore is very common and chances are that bendix is 1". That and the front wheel cyls determine "most" braking effort and ability. The 7/8" rear master would reduce volume and force to the rear for a given pedal-press; making the rear master bore 1" would increase rear braking, and yeah, lock up. 

But if the pedal is all mushy things are in bad shape...



If your'e going for 100% correct you'll want the original master cylinder, but if you wanna drive it you can make the 1" symmetrical master work by putting in smaller diameter rear wheel cylinders. Try next-smallest, 7/8" (14/16"). This is easier than messing with proportioning valve add-ons, which are not cheap and require plumbing anyway. Wheel cylinders are fairly cheap.

You can calculate relative pressures fairly easily but if you're not familiar with the math, call up some brake expert shops, I use C H Topping in Long Beach but there are others, and explain what you want. They can do that math easily.



I have had masters with same bore front/rear and marked FRONT and REAR, that detail I wouldn't draw too much conclusion. 

Sorry again for jumping to conclusions on the symmetrical bore. 



Edited by tomj - Dec/09/2021 at 12:28am
1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto
1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5
http://www.ramblerLore.com

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stingray Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec/09/2021 at 7:28pm
Hi Tomj,

Thanks so much for your comments!

Firstly I have no idea what m/c is there now.  It has equal sized reservoirs, a cover that that's held on by a retainer that swings up and over the cap.  I don't even know if it is a Bendix. See picture.



I don't appear to have any air in the system, and shoes are adjusted all around.  I have long pedal travel (in my opinion) but pedal is firm and not spongy when it reaches its end of travel.

When driving the brakes seem ineffective and increasing brake pressure causes rear to lock up.

My current plan is to swap front and rear brake lines and see if that makes any difference.

I don't have any need for originality ... just safety Smile

If the brake line swap makes no difference, I'll assume 1" m/c front and rear and then experiment with rear wheel cylinder sizes as you suggested.

Will keep you posted!

Cheers,
Joe


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tomj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec/09/2021 at 10:23pm
Ahh, didn't realize you had firm pedal. One last thing to check/try is jack each each wheel, all four, brakes off, and rotate each, and make sure each i adjusted OK (light scuff when you rotate). If one or more is wildly off it will affect pedal stroke. Just a 'make sure OK' check.

I take it from your comments to recently got this (unknown) car? If so it is probably worth pulling off each wheel and drum and just looking around. Check for leaks (peel back the boot on each side of each wheel cyl), see if drums are OK, shoes not down to metal, etc. Wire brush it all clean. THe knowledge is cheap, and cheap insurance. You might end up making a shopping list.


I don't know how to ID a master cylinder even off the car and on the bench. Maybe there's a part number cast in? I doubt it's easy to find on the car. Very many physically interchange as far as mounting to the firewall/booster (is this manual brakes?), but the variables are:

* port configuration
* pushrod length

"Most" AMC master cyls are 1".

Port configuration, not just front and rear, but the threaded hole size varies. THats usually more trouble than the front/rear thing. I'm a bad person to ask about keeping brake systems stock, mine never are. Example: last time I did this, 1963 AMerican master cylinders were scarce, and $200 for a rebuilt: for 1964, $25 NEW! Guess which I chose. That catch: ports were the wrong size. But the lines were all rotten anyway, so I re-plumbed with standard 3/16" brake line and bought adapters. 

SO except for stock replacement most of my suggestions will be hacker-ish, as that's how I approach cars...


<cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" dir="ltr" border="1" style="table-layout: fixed; font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial; width: 0px; border-collapse: collapse; border: none;">Brake line adapterroadster, 63-10Dorman 43301. Accepts 3/16” inverted flare tube, screws into 5/16” flare hole. (master cyl.)Brake line adapter (master cyl)roadsterEdelmann 258350, DORMAN 490535. 1/2-20 male, accepts 3/16” female (standard brake line)Brake line adapter (master cyl)roadsterEdelmann #258302 (summitracing.com), DORMAN Part # 7830, Dorman 490-533 (impossible). 9/16-18 male, accepts 3/16” female (standard brake line)Brake master cylinderroadsterMC39027 (7/8" bore) plus adapters. was: MC39118 (1"). pushrod and ports vary. was: NAPA M2056. 1/2-20 port (“front”, closest to pushrod) 9/16-18 (“rear”). see adapters.
1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto
1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5
http://www.ramblerLore.com

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