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AMC 199 in a 1952 Willys Delivery |
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Seabee
AMC Fan Joined: Jun/27/2022 Location: So. Illinois Status: Offline Points: 4 |
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Posted: Jun/27/2022 at 7:31am |
Hi Guys,
I have been a lurker here for a long time and decided to make it official. A lot of good info here! I have collected a lot of performance parts in anticipation of one day rebuilding my 199 to a 232 with 4BBL, cam, and headers. I have a 1968 199 that came from an American with an automatic. The car was owned by the Catholic Diocese in St Louis and driven by the Sisters for errands. 80K original miles. I resealed and repainted it and it runs great with really good oil pressure. When I bought the delivery it had a destroyed early 232 in it. I had driven the Delivery for a few hundred miles and the T90 broke the mainshaft. The rollers between the input and mainshaft seized and took the end off the mainshaft! It was full of oil and I rebuilt it when I installed the new engine. Post mortem analysis revealed that the bellhousing is WAY off from being aligned with the crank. It needs to move .170 up and .140 to the pass side!!. Hard to believe I got the T90 in there without noticing something was amiss. Anyway, is there something I should know about any difference between automatic and manual transmission 199 blocks? I wouldn't think there would be any difference in dowel alignment bores? I'm not sure I can even "free align" and bore new locations for 1/4" roll pins. I don't know if I can get all of the bolts in after moving it that far. I have two of the 5 bolt bellhousings and they both check out with the same offset. Any help/advice would be appreciated! Thanks, Seabee
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Spin Doctor
AMC Apprentice Joined: Apr/05/2012 Location: Kenosha, WI Status: Offline Points: 78 |
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There may have been a dimensional difference between the location of dowels when using transmissions and bell housings from different eras. Initially all 232 and later 199 and 258 blocks had their dowel locations for the bell housings and automatics machined in one of two stations (operation 60, 6 cylinder block line, finish end). These stations were identical in design. A third station was added when the second block line was installed in 1974. Multiple machining operation were performed in opp 60. Crank bearing seat final bore, Cam Bearing final bore (the cam inserts were bored after installation), Distributor final bore, Oil pump location final bore and the Dowel Locations in the block. I'm not sure if these dowel locations were changed to match the locations used by different transmission manufactures or if the transmission manufactures changed their product to match. .170 sounds like a lot. There is no way that an error like that would ever get past inspection. All of the dimensional specifications on opp 60 were in the range of +/- .003 on location to the pan rail and main manufacturing holes (the. 750" holes in the pan rail). Plus the cam and main bearing bores had an alignment tolerance of .003 to each other as well as to the pan rail and main manufacturing holes. Bell housing were machined at Kenosha Engine Division in Dept 811 up until sometime in the 1980s when the line was moved to Toledo iirc. There were machining operations moved to Toledo when the second block line was put in. V-8 exhaust manifolds etc
I worked in Machine Repair in 818 from 1977 to 1980 after I finished my apprenticeship. |
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74 Hornet, 75 Pacer, 68 AMX, 77 Hornet, 82 Concord, 84 Wagoneer
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Seabee
AMC Fan Joined: Jun/27/2022 Location: So. Illinois Status: Offline Points: 4 |
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Thanks for the feedback. It has been very frustrating. I need to dig into it again tonight. I think I'm going to remove the dowels and "free align" it until I get under .005 and see where that leaves the bellhousing. It sure would be MUCH nicer to do it with the engine on the floor, rather than installed...........
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Seabee
AMC Fan Joined: Jun/27/2022 Location: So. Illinois Status: Offline Points: 4 |
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Well, I got it lined up. It required shifting .077 towards 11:00. I free aligned and then drilled two other locations for roll pins. It is working great now. Very odd problem to resolve..................
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Ken_Parkman
AMC Addicted Joined: Jun/04/2009 Location: Ontario Status: Offline Points: 1814 |
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Hi Seabee - welcome to the AMC side!
I just saw your thread over on the Willys forum. There was a different block pattern with 6 cylinder BW and TF transmissions with the change in 72. I am not familiar with how much different they are other than the starter is on the opposite side. Your 68 engine would have had the early pattern with the drivers side starter. If the starter is on the passenger side you have the late bellhousing; maybe that is the problem? Did you mount the bellhousing only on the engine and spin the pilot bore? If it is off that far there is a compatibility problem. As per Spin Doctor the factory stuff I have usually found to be very good for alignment because it must be or they would be endless failures and warranty problems, and it has to be easy to assembly on a production line. There is no way it could have been that bad for alignment and actually run for more than a few minutes. I've messed with mixing and matching engines in the race world and have learned a healthy distrust of non factory parts. And aftermarket parts that are supposed to bolt up. Ended up in the same boat as you aligning bellhousings, but never with factory parts.
Edited by Ken_Parkman - Jul/05/2022 at 2:02pm |
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