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Steering idler, 63 Ambo. and others |
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990V8 
AMC Addicted 
Joined: Oct/07/2016 Location: Gloucestershire Status: Offline Points: 788 |
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 Topic: Steering idler, 63 Ambo. and othersPosted: Jan/06/2021 at 12:28pm |
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Lubing the front susp today. Steering idler, no nipple.
Last car I had was a Silver Shadow, the idler had an oil bath. AMC - nothing. What do you chaps do about lubrication? After 57 years it must need something. Moly? Marine grease? Ivor
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63 Canadian Ambo 990 V8 327
74 LandRover Lightweight V8 SIII Shopping Trolley |
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tomj
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Joined: Jan/27/2010 Location: earth Status: Offline Points: 7544 |
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Posted: Jan/06/2021 at 11:25pm |
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You are supposed to grimly watch it decay, in slow motion, and feel inadequate in your realization that there is nothing you can do, and that life is futile.
They are improbable-seeming things. The inner sleeve simply rotates, reluctantly, in the rubber. It is odd. The forces acting on them are hard to visualize, I think that it cocks, loaded top front/rear bottom, and variably as you steer. Hard to believe the forces are all that large, but I'm not convinced by my own opinion. I suspect it's relatively immune to wear, in that wear errors may change toe infinitesimally. Oil bath?!! Wow. I am humbled. |
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1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto
1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5 http://www.ramblerLore.com |
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990V8
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Joined: Oct/07/2016 Location: Gloucestershire Status: Offline Points: 788 |
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Posted: Jan/07/2021 at 4:28am |
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What?
It's a Silentbloc? This I have to see. Maybe not today - it's like a fridge in my garage. Ivor
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63 Canadian Ambo 990 V8 327
74 LandRover Lightweight V8 SIII Shopping Trolley |
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tomj
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Joined: Jan/27/2010 Location: earth Status: Offline Points: 7544 |
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Posted: Jan/07/2021 at 10:51pm |
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Oh wait -- your car (64? Ambassador?) I think got a real, greasable idler. Didn't it? The AMericans got the rubber bushed idler.
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1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto
1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5 http://www.ramblerLore.com |
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990V8
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Joined: Oct/07/2016 Location: Gloucestershire Status: Offline Points: 788 |
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Posted: Jan/08/2021 at 4:20am |
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Took a quick peek at the idler last night, and found one paragraph in the 63 TSM.
It says the centre tube is bonded to the rubber bush. The rubber bush moves in the steel sleeve. So, it's not a Silentbloc, because that would be bonded to the sleeve as well. It also says it's 'lubricated for life' which as we know can no longer be true after 57 years. It's a funny old design, they had some original ideas back then. I suppose putting any sort of hydrocarbon on that rubber - marine grease, moly, would be a bad idea as hydrocarbon and rubber don't get along very well. Perhaps rubber grease, the stuff one uses in brakes. But now we head down the worm hole of grease, as Rubber Grease in Wiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicone_grease directs us to silicone grease which is good for O rings and screw threads, but perhaps not moving parts. If we go to Brake Grease, Wiki has nothing to say, but here https://www.greasemonkeydirect.com/blogs/news/grease-guide-what-is-brake-grease-used-for it tells us that brake grease is used for brakes, and not harmful to rubber. But then it goes on to suggest that it's good for brake cables, hmmm. Well, I have some brake grease, the red stuff. I think I'll ask the manufacturer's technical dept if it's any good for the idler. Ivor
Edited by 990V8 - Jan/08/2021 at 4:22am |
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63 Canadian Ambo 990 V8 327
74 LandRover Lightweight V8 SIII Shopping Trolley |
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tomj
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Joined: Jan/27/2010 Location: earth Status: Offline Points: 7544 |
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Posted: Jan/08/2021 at 9:01pm |
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I pulled an old 63-01 idler bush out of the history bin (I keep one of everything, for tasks like this!), it sure looks like it was assembled from three pieces somehow -- steel/rubber/steel -- and not molded in place. But I wouldn't argue back if someone insisted.
Silicone paste makes a good rubber lube, but I don't see how you'd ever get any in there. And as you say, after 10 - 15 years the rubber, lubricated or not, would be stiffening and oxidizing. I suppose this is what OEMs figured out, and that making them lubricable offered no one any advantage. (I now own a tub of Energy Suspensions silicone suspension snot. Its very thick.) |
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1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto
1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5 http://www.ramblerLore.com |
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farna
Supporter of TheAMCForum 
Moderator Lost Dealership Project Joined: Jul/08/2007 Location: South Carolina Status: Offline Points: 19676 |
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Posted: Jan/19/2021 at 7:32am |
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IIRC those are all bonded together, and the rubber twists inside -- the steel sleeve doesn't rotate. I might be wrong... it has happened. My understanding was that the resistance to turning helped with centering the steering, and stabilized it a bit. It's something that wears out (usually the rubber dry rotting) and is simply replaced. The bushing presses out. Newer cars (trucks?) that still use a steering box and drag link replace the entire arm with the bushing. Can't recall what car it was I bought one for now, but couldn't get just the bushing, had to buy a replacement arm. Full size late 70s Ford for a friend?? Maybe a late 70s GM??? Nearly everything (even trucks) uses rack and pinion now...
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Frank Swygert
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990V8
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Joined: Oct/07/2016 Location: Gloucestershire Status: Offline Points: 788 |
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Posted: Jan/19/2021 at 9:29am |
Haven't pulled it apart yet - hung up on the valve stem seals - but the TSM says the rubber rotates in the outer. That would be really weird, but we'll see. Mind you, they did do some weird things back in the day. The Andre Hartford shock dampers, so popular in the 1920s, had friction discs of apple wood. Not rack & pinion, but I was pleasantly surprised how accurate the steering is on the Ambo once I adjusted the slack out of the box, and put some oil in it. I think the strong self-centering has a lot to do with it. In the 70s I used to run a 34 Lanchester, the steering was well worn. I attached some sofa springs from the steering arm to the leaf springs on each side to centre the steering, made it quite tolerable to steer. Like that for a few years. Sofas were better made in the old days. Ivor
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63 Canadian Ambo 990 V8 327
74 LandRover Lightweight V8 SIII Shopping Trolley |
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tomj
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Joined: Jan/27/2010 Location: earth Status: Offline Points: 7544 |
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Posted: Jan/19/2021 at 3:43pm |
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All of the Rambler/AMC inner control arm bushings work in exactly the same way. The outer sleeve is a press-fit into the arm, and the inner sleeve is tight against the pivot bar/chassis pocket. The inner sleeve rotates inside the rubber. Crazy, unlikely, but they last 20 years. They fail safely, are quiet, cheap to make, error/dimension tolerant, easy enough to install. Its all old world crockery, but done right, and it is labor intensive, compared to even 1970's stuff, it works just great. The early Americans are so soft and easy to drive, its crazy. Literally two fingers to operate the clutch, 100 ft/lbs of torque at 1400 rpm, the tiny Gemmer steering box, 20:1 6 turns!, roller and ball bearings in the upper trunnion, they were nicely engineered to be eeeeeeeeasy.... (not quick!) |
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1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto
1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5 http://www.ramblerLore.com |
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farna wrote: