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Worn wheel holes

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billd View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote billd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Worn wheel holes
    Posted: Apr/27/2015 at 7:30am
I have a set of the aluminum wheels for my Eagle - I suspect one of the wheels on the car now could be less than "true", perhaps part of my vibrations at certain high speeds.
The issue is that one of the wheels has been run with loose nuts.
It isn't bad, but you can see on the backside that a couple of the holes appear to be slightly egged. The wheel isn't ripped up and there's still taper and I suspect with the nuts properly tightened/torqued they would settle in fine.
But being a safety sort of issue, I wanted to ask as honestly I've never run any wheel that didn't have perfect holes and nuts and have never run a wheel loose, not in my 44 years of driving.

I don't have photos yet, but based on description, would you run or not run those wheels. I can't say that I can run one of mine and 3 of these as they are different styles. AMC used 2 different aluminum wheels on the Eagles - one had the black center strip that went clear into the center cap, the other style had the black strip stop short of the center cap, otherwise I'd simply use one of these to replace any that are questionable on my car.
I've GOT to get rid of that vibration before a bazillion mile trip out east this summer - it vibrates or shakes at Interstate speeds of all things.

This is the style on my car now - the other set has the black stopping short of the center and uses different center caps.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 304-dude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/27/2015 at 7:46am
Well,  to me I would have thought the hub would have a tighter clearance to keep the egg shape to a minimum with a loose wheel. Maybe that is the sound you had with driving between 30 and 40.

For me the damage is too far with the holes. I would have a machine shop look at creating  hardened inserts to correct the holes. Some machining will need to be done,  but only for centering and creating a seat. I probably would go with a tapered insert so you get the most contact without need of a larger flange diameter. Even if the inserts are about the same outside diameter as the lug nuts, you would be hard pressed to notice any differences between the fixed wheel and the rest.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nickleone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/27/2015 at 12:20pm
Is the wheel round? Is it bent and not visible.
If I remember correctly there were cast versions of that wheel and forged versions. My ex Pro Rally SX/4 had forged ones. They did get out of round and bent, but never cracked.
You could have a wobble on the wheel, check by mounting on the car and
use an indicator to check for wobble.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote billd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/27/2015 at 12:42pm
Originally posted by 304-dude 304-dude wrote:

Well,  to me I would have thought the hub would have a tighter clearance to keep the egg shape to a minimum with a loose wheel. Maybe that is the sound you had with driving between 30 and 40.

For me the damage is too far with the holes. I would have a machine shop look at creating  hardened inserts to correct the holes. Some machining will need to be done,  but only for centering and creating a seat. I probably would go with a tapered insert so you get the most contact without need of a larger flange diameter. Even if the inserts are about the same outside diameter as the lug nuts, you would be hard pressed to notice any differences between the fixed wheel and the rest.


Let's not get tangled up here - the wheel with the worn holes has NEVER been on my car ever.
In fact that whole set has never been on my car.
And I've never had a loose wheel - remember?  Wink
The sound is absolutely established as not a wheel as a wheel sound would be far far far faster, there'd be no 3 seconds between squeaks.

Back on the wheels question - Seriously, I am asking about using the spare set of wheels on my car - but one of those SPARE wheels has been run loose by someone else in years past and some of the holes are worn a bit, not terrible.

The reason I'm looking at using these wheels is one of mine MAY MAY be slightly off-  meaning when on a balancer it didn't run 100% true but showed a couple thousandths off true.
I need to get the car up and use my dial indicator to check again to see how bad it was but if I recall when I measured it at home it wasn't very bad -
This is related to an extremely high speed vibration in the car that's not related to tire balance, tire out of true, alignment, etc. but is a problem that goes back years - to about the time I put the current set of wheels on the car.

This is all a totally distinct and separate question or concern from the noise - the squeak.
That's a VERY slow turning sort of situation. Turn something about 20 RPM where it squeaks in just one spot and you'd have it.

My current vibration is a very fast vibration and it shakes the dash when it's bad, but at times it's not very bad at all - in fact last weekend I had it at 80 and it was fairly smooth but just days before it was shaking the dash at 75.

But my question is "how bad is too bad or too risky" as far as worn wheel nut holes?
I bought these wheels recently as spares in case mine did turn out to have a wheel out of true.
But I am also aware that for minor problems wheels can be trued up, too........
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote billd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/27/2015 at 12:50pm
Originally posted by nickleone nickleone wrote:

Is the wheel round? Is it bent and not visible.
If I remember correctly there were cast versions of that wheel and forged versions. My ex Pro Rally SX/4 had forged ones. They did get out of round and bent, but never cracked.
You could have a wobble on the wheel, check by mounting on the car and
use an indicator to check for wobble.

Nick


MY set that I've run on the car for the last 3 or 4 years I bought years ago and put on - and it wasn't much after that I noted the vibration. I so seldom had the car on the highway that I never really noticed the vibration so I can't say "it is definitely wheel related" and I cannot say for sure it is not wheel related.

I bought ANOTHER set of wheels a year ago and stashed them in my garage. Seeing the trip to Ohio coming up and getting sick of that annoying vibration that shakes the dash now and then at Interstate speeds, I ran across this second set of wheels I bought last year and looked them over. They are not perfect cosmetically, one has a rough spot like someone messed around taking a tire off and gouged the outer edge of the wheel, but when I held them up and looked at the middles I noticed one had been run with loose nuts at some point in the past by a past owner.
Three of them see to have ok holes, the 4th has minor "egging" in the stud holes. Of course they fit on the axle hubs so couldn't to more than turn to egg them, they are not enlarged in all directions, in fact only one direction as if they never put the car in reverse.
I've never had or owned a bad wheel in my life, I've never had lug nuts come loose, never driven with loose wheel nuts - and I've never put worn wheels on any car, even a car that wasn't mine. I've been lucky enough that even when working my way through college doing tire work I never experienced a bad or worn wheel! Weird, yeah. No customer ever had a bad wheel.
(and trust me, with our customers that is weird!!)

Maybe it's best if I post a picture or two to show the holes I'm asking about and get opinions - use the wheels or not...........
I bought them this way.
I am considering using them because I question the wheels on my car now. One MAY be out of true, I need to raise the wheels and use a dial indicator on the rims.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AMXFSTBK390 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/27/2015 at 1:21pm
Another set of wheels may not make the vibration go away. A friend of mine chased a high speed vibration problem on his car for years. Frustrated, he took his car to Precision Brake and Front End, down the street from me. The shop discovered the vibration issue. The vibration problem was caused by a bent axle flange. New axle solved the vibration problem.

Edited by AMXFSTBK390 - Apr/27/2015 at 1:24pm
Questions are powerful tools...what's in your toolbox?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote billd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/28/2015 at 6:36am

Originally posted by AMXFSTBK390 AMXFSTBK390 wrote:

Another set of wheels may not make the vibration go away. A friend of mine chased a high speed vibration problem on his car for years. Frustrated, he took his car to Precision Brake and Front End, down the street from me. The shop discovered the vibration issue. The vibration problem was caused by a bent axle flange. New axle solved the vibration problem.


While that is true, the car never had the vibration until after it had been driven a while, a few thou, and I made a whole lot of changes - but the axles stayed the same and the car has never even hit a bad pothole (so I baby it a bit now and then, I love this car LOL)
I can easily check axles and hubs while the car is up, although I have done that before as when I replaced the axle bearings and seals I had the back end all apart except the core of the differential and checked each piece, axle and hub, with a dial indicator while I turned the axles in place. I agree it can't hurt to check again.

Back on the question of "would you use these wheels", here are some pictures. I dunno about our members here but for me a picture can say far more than a long page of words.
First, here is an example of the wheels I am thinking of using - these have never been on my car, ever. (My guess is it's been a while since they have been on any car for that matter)
This is the style with the middle strip that stops short of the center, unlike what's on my car now.
So first - the type and style of wheel I'm considering using:



Next pictures are of the holes in the wheel. 3 of the 4 wheels show no hole wear, this one is "iffy" to me.... whadduthink?
I find it very interesting that one hole is worn worse than the others, 2 of them show little wear. How can that be if the wheel is snug on the center hub and would have to turn evenly around it - would it not wear ALL holes exactly the same? If you turn anything on a shaft, all of the diameter must turn equally around that shaft. If the wheel were loose, it would want to turn around the axle's hub since the wheel is fit over the axle hub and if there were no studs, would turn around the hub as its center. Odd, as if one hole moved and the others did not but that's not possible since all holes are in the same wheel.









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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote farna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/28/2015 at 7:13am
I don't think the damage to the one wheel is enough to be dangerous. It might cause a vibration, but you'd notice that and change it.  Time to just change the wheels and see if the vibration goes away. You might just want to put a tire on one of the spare wheels (best looking one) and try it on all four corners. That will be a lot of tire swapping, but no more than changing all of them over only to find that didn't solve the vibration, and have to change them all over again.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote billd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/28/2015 at 7:46am
I had actually thought of doing that.
Regarding that one wheel, Since some of the holes really don't show damage to speak of, and I torque all wheels in sequence and to specs, I had personally thought "naw, it really doesn't seem that bad" but never having in all these years, oddly enough, experienced a loose wheel or a bad or worn wheel, I just found myself second-guessing myself. I do that a lot anyway - paranoid about my own decisions sometimes, but this is an issue I've had zero experiences with and I do a lot based on experiences - either my own, or mistakes made by others ;-)

Appearance-wise these wheels look at least as good as those on my car, except for 1, even better in many ways. One as I said was marked up on the very outer edge as if someone horsed a tire off using caveman tools or something.

If the car is making a cross-country trip this summer with my wife in the car, it's got to be safe and reliable, no doubts.
(I may do risky things now and then, but absolutely not with her in the car. )
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wrambler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/28/2015 at 11:19am
I've run steel wheels that looked worse than that. not any aluminums though.

I'd think that with it centered on the hub and torqued to spec it will do fine, just retorque once it heat sycles a few times.

If the caps hid the nuts I'd suggest some circle track lugnuts!
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