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Chrysler 904, 998 & 727 interchange information

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Gremil View Drop Down
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    Posted: Jul/18/2013 at 10:41am
I've got a Gremlin that was formerly a six, now V8. Temporarily I've bolted the stock 904 to the engine just to try it out and make sure things work and are adjusted. Differential is already swapped but I do still need some work to reinforce the rear leaf. My last and hopefully final change will be the transmission. For now I'm running a vacuum secondary carb and stock converter to prevent early damage to the tranny. Not going to be a drag car. This is a purely for street use and maybe some hot rodding as the opportunity arises.

My question is as follows:
What can be swapped in as far as transmissions go with the least work? I want to avoid having to fabricate a drive shaft if possible. I've been told the 998 transmission parts will swap out into the 904 case I already have. Also, how different is the 727 transmission and what would I need to make a proper swap out?

Thanks in advance
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SnakePlissken Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul/18/2013 at 10:53am
Subed. Also if I were to get a transmission out of an old Mopar is the bolt pattern the same or were the transmission bolt patterns different ?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DougS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul/18/2013 at 11:17am
AMC had an unique bolt pattern to the engine. They are all good transmissions and the 904 and 998 can be beefed up fairly easily to more than handle a mild V8.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gremil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul/18/2013 at 11:33am
I noticed that there are high performance rebuild kits for the 904. But I was thinking it would be better to get a 998, even if from a Chrysler, then use those parts in the 904 to rebuild it for more durability. Hopefully someone with unique knowledge on this can help out. A 727 would be best, but I don't want to modify the driveshaft unless I have to. I've already done this once on the differential swap.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ken_Parkman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul/18/2013 at 11:34am
AMC patterns are unique to AMC, so a mopar will not bolt up. However the internals will work.
 
A 727 is a longer/larger trans with a different output spline, so you need a new driveshaft to go with a 727, although most other stuff (linkages, mount) is easy. Some people believe a 727 to be much more durable, but in my opinion they are not that great in a race application unless you do something about the huge drum. To me it is a street towing trans not for high performance, and someone will hate me for that. I would not use one in a race car.
 
The 904 is available in numerous versions. The AMC 998 case ase used on the 304 is the prefered one as it has an extra rib, but the 904 AMC case will work. Over the years mopar made a lot of changes and versions of this trans, including the 999 used with 360 mopars. A clever builder can create a very good 904 by using the 999 drums (more clutches) and the late pump drive with flats instead of slots and other of the best combination of parts. And a good builder knows the right things to do, and has aftermarket improvements also available. So you can have a very good strong version of the 904 tranny that bolts right in in place of the 6 cyl tranny. For a decent running street car there is nothing special required, just a well thought out rebuild using the right factory parts.
 
Lot's of people use the 904 based tranny behind strong running 401's, done right there is no problem. As a point of interest the 904 is considered one of the very fastest trannies, and many high end Comp Eliminator types are using them in their chevy's. I know of one BBC stock eliminator guy caught with a Chevy pattern 904 from an iron duke AMC in his Camaro.
 
The 904 also has an easily available and inexpensive wide ratio gearset available, and that may be a real advantage to run a lower (numerically) rear axle ratio and still have decent acceleration in a street car. This needs to be carefully considered in a race application as it is very easy to overgear the combination if you have a good converter. In most cases I do not recommend the wide ratio set unless you have a special situation of low power and a heavy car.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gremil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul/18/2013 at 1:44pm
I appreciate the response. I've been told that the 904 cannot tolerate the power of a hefty V8 without damage and to look for a 727. But the 727 is heavier and as you pointed out, more weight in the rotating mass. I will patiently look for a 998 for an upgrade, but I feel the 904 should do just fine if I don't get crazy.

Years ago I took a 69 Plymouth Barracuda with a 318 out and with encouragement from some friends really abused it. It had a 904 transmission. We'd put it in neutral, floor it, then drop it into reverse at full throttle. Then while it was smoking the tires in reverse we'd drop it into "D" while still at full throttle. It would still have momentum in reverse as the wheels began smoking forward. Once it caught some traction it literally would leave rubber marks for more than one block with no gap when it shifted gears. We did this a lot and nothing ever happened to that transmission. So you can imagine my amazement when someone tells me, "That 904 won't hold up well."

I usually say, "Really?" But I'm sure with a beefy 401 behind it and a stall converter with great traction it could break so I'll look for better 998 parts. Appreciate the info guys!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 1970390amx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul/18/2013 at 3:05pm
I would agree with what ken said. The problem with a 727 in a Gremlin is it is a very tight fit, almost to the point of being unworkable. Both transmissions have good and bad. The worst of a 727 is the low sprag, it is just pressed into the case and held by serrations and a small set screw. Try the netural drop thing and the case is junk. It can be fixed with a aftermarket bolt in sprag but they are expensive. The sprag is rivited to the case on 904- 998 transmissions. The clutches in a 904 are way smaller than the 727 ones but more can be added using the right parts. Use a late pump with the flats to drive the converter. Unless you are running huge horsepower in a heavy car I see no reason to use a 727. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gremil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul/18/2013 at 3:21pm
Originally posted by 1970390amx 1970390amx wrote:

I would agree with what ken said. The problem with a 727 in a Gremlin is it is a very tight fit, almost to the point of being unworkable. Both transmissions have good and bad. The worst of a 727 is the low sprag, it is just pressed into the case and held by serrations and a small set screw. Try the netural drop thing and the case is junk. It can be fixed with a aftermarket bolt in sprag but they are expensive. The sprag is rivited to the case on 904- 998 transmissions. The clutches in a 904 are way smaller than the 727 ones but more can be added using the right parts. Use a late pump with the flats to drive the converter. Unless you are running huge horsepower in a heavy car I see no reason to use a 727. 


Thanks, I agree with you. Car isn't that heavy nor such a torque monster that I can't manage with just some good improvements on the 904.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote uncljohn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul/18/2013 at 4:55pm
Most everything I have done has been done on a fairly stringent budget so I am answering from that stand point. That of what can I expect for the biggest bang from my buck and enjoy.
I believe what ever you choice is you are going to have to spend some money.  That said, and assuming a Gremlin is not a heavy car it does not make much difference at all what transmission you choose, the car itself is not forcing  you to go heavy duty in terms of maximum beefy.
A 727 is an S.O.B. To fit and expensive to rebuild.
But it is almost bullet proof.
A 904 is also expensive to upgrade to something that will take more abuse, but it is not only do-able but has been done over and over again and it fits as does a 998 which if you find one from behind a 998 is a better choice but harder to find.
That said my preference is to take a later 904 with a lock up torque converter.  Rebuild it to handle more abuse, it is when done adequate and more efficient than a non lock up 904 and any 727.
A lock torque converter than will act as a poor mans 4th gear in that when it comes up to speed it lowers the engine rpm by about 500 or so rpm.
That is done by changing spring tension in the valve that controls the lock up point so that it will lock up at a higher road speed,  say 50 or 55 mph rather than 39 mph as designed.
Who does that?  An old school transmission shop may have some one in it that is familiar with where to get the parts and can handle that as part of the up grades.
That was a common modification back in the day.
I then would have a 2200 rpm Stall lock up torque converter built which will make the car much more drivable and be more flexible in how it can be driven.
As to reliability?  If you take some care of it, it should be more than reliable.
I am running that package behind a very healthy (about 180 hp)  in line 6 and have close to 50 or so thousand miles on it with no problems.
Or for a little extra money, put a 200r or a 700R4 in the thing and get a modern 4 speed transmission and have a 2200 rpm stall converter built for it with the lock up feature.  It don't fit either, but you would not regret the effort to make it fit.
I am doing that in my Hornet.
A drive shaft can be made up for about $150.00 and a 2200 rpm stall converter is in the same price range.
And an appropriate electronic lock up kit is $100.00 +/- some.
Lokar makes parts you can use to shift it with the column shift off of your Gremlin.  That is what I have done with my Hornet.  The lokar parts run about another $100.00 or so.

I would go a 700R4 or it's sibling before I spent money on a 727.  The cost has to be close the end result would be more satisfying.
Not wanting to do that I would try to find a buildable 998 and if I couldn't I'd build a 904 and call it good to go.

In fact?
That is what I did.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ken_Parkman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul/18/2013 at 9:07pm
I got my lock-up 9 1/2" A500 converter this evening for my AMC OD project. It is an A500 using a Jeep 42RE front case for a 4 speed overdrive that bolts to the AMC. The car it is going in has lots of transmission tunnel space so the larger rear OD section fits.

The A500 is an OD version of the 904/998/999. This combination gives me a hydraulically controlled OD that bolts to the 401 with no adapter required. Even the kickdown and shift linkages bolt up, but I have to rework the crossmember.

It has been difficult to get a converter as I did not want to settle for a low stall converter, and with the lock-up you can have your cake and eat it as well, a decent converter to get a good launch yet a lock-up for dailly driving. This converter should come in about 3500 with the 401, it is built on the 245 mm GM core which should have much better efficiency and torque multiplication than the 11" mopar converter. I'm looking to run 11's at 3700 lbs, yet be able to drive the thing anywhere in decent comfort and get good milage with a low rpm highway cruise.

However this setup has cost more to put together than I expected.

The bad news is my trick new custom one of a kind AMC serious performance LU converter has the wrong pump drive, it has the slotted one instead of the flats that I ordered. The A500 uses a larger volume pump, and by that time mopar had changed to flats to drive the pump.

AAARRRRGGGGHHHH!!!!!

Why does it have to be so difficult?
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