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1964 Rambler 990-H

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote farna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/14/2012 at 8:20am
Okay, I just took a closer look at a couple of the TSMs. The T-86 has the six bolt top cover. I have been getting the T-85 and T-86 confused. There are also TWO DIFFERENT OD units, the R-10 used behind the 196 and 199 (and older, smaller Nash L-head sixes related to the 196) and the R-11 used behind 232 and larger engines (R-10 may have been used behind the 232 in the American -- R-10 was always used with the T-96, T-85 I BELIEVE always got the R-11, but can't verify that 100%). The main difference (only one I can find) is that the R-10 uses three planetary gears and the R-11 uses four. Can't tell clearly from the pics, but you should have the R-11. The "drum" gear on the output shaft may be cut different for the four planetaries vs. three -- I don't know if they will interchange or not. I don't see why smaller gears couldn't mesh with the same drum as the larger diameters of the three gears set. The main reason the four gear set is stronger is that the load is spread over four planetary shafts rather than three -- the shafts are rather small.

According to all the early Borg-Warner info I can find the first number indicates a transmission series while the second number indicates relative strength (to other members of that series). So the T-85 should be the weaker of the T-85/86/89 series (and any previous T-8x series, if there are any -- didn't research that far!). The anomaly here appears to be the T-86, which is a top loader instead of a side loader. Internally it appears to be the same as a T-85 and T-89, and the case design is the only obvious difference, and may be the only difference. Maybe some manufacturer wanted a top loaded trans that could use a top mount shifter, and B-W cast the case so it could be used with a side shifter just by machining the holes and changing shift arms. That's just a guess, I don't know of any specific applications that use a top shifter T-86, but Jeep used the T-90 which had a case made that way (Jeep used a top cover/shifter, but the Jeep case has the bosses for the side shift levers, just no holes for side shift shafts drilled). 

There is no obvious difference between the T-85 and T-89 either -- could be different shaft diameters, could just be different materials used.  I know all the late 60s Ford three speed manual OD transmissions were T-85s, I suppose B-W preferred to sell the trans with the OD unit, but Ford didn't sell a whole lot of them by the late 60s. It may have just been more cost effective for them to buy the trans/OD as a package rather than make an adapter for another transmission. I don't know enough about Ford manual transmissions -- they may have all been subcontracted to B-W, but I think the most common ones were actually made by Ford with the optional, lower volume models supplied by outside vendors.

As far as AMC manual transmission use, it seems to be:

T-96 3 speed -- all 199 and smaller sixes in big cars (through 1966). Used in American and early Hornet and Gremlin up to 1972.  In 68 & 69 it was only used behind the 199. In 1970-72 a heavier duty version (T-96J) was used behind the 232 in Hornet and Gremlin only. Borg-Warner overdrive was available through 1969. Side shift, four bolt top cover.
T-85 3 speed -- big cars with 232 or V-8, Borg-Warner overdrive only, through 1965. Not used in American. Side shift, side cover (shift arm side). See notes!
T-86 3 speed -- used behind 232 and larger sixes in big cars, 250, 287 and 290 V-8s through 1967. Used with overdrive behind the 250 V-8 (1956-61). Side shift, four bolt top cover.
T-89 3 speed -- used behind the 327 in big cars through 1966. Side shift, side cover (shift arm side). See notes!
T-10 4 speed -- 1965-74.  Replaced OD for V-8s in big cars in 65. After 66 this was the only manual trans offered behind engines larger than the 290. Side shift, side cover (shift arm side). Reverse is in output shaft housing. Essentially a T-85/89 with 4th gear replacing reverse in the case.

Starting in 1968 all the old manual transmissions were dropped with the exception of the T-96, which soldiered on in small cars through 1972. They were replaced with fully synchronized three speeds. The old ones only had one synchronizer between 2nd and 3rd gears -- first and reverse were only intended to be used from a dead stop. Down-shifting into 1st at other than a stop or near stop is the most common damaging mistake made with the old style manual transmissions.

Borg-Warner also started their numbering scheme over with the new fully synchronized models. They either had to do that or go to a three number system, as they had run out of main series numbers.

T-14 3 speed -- used behind 232 in all but 70-72 Hornet and Gremlin, 68-74. It was a heavy duty option for the Hornet and Gremlin 70-72. Borg-Warner overdrive was available through 1969. Reintroduced in 75 for the Gremlin with 232/258 only. Side shift, 6 bolt top cover.
T-15 3 speed -- used behind the 290/304 only, 68-72. All 68-72 larger V-8s and all 73+ V-8s got automatics or the T-10 four speed. Side shift, 8 bolt top cover.
150T 3 speed (also called T-150) -- 1975-79  behind the 232 and 258. Also used behind 304 in 1976 only.  Used in Hornet and Gremlin only with Laycock-DeNormanville OD unit 75-76. Side shift, 9 bolt top cover (Jeep versions with shifter in cover only show 8 bolts, no center bolt in rear).
SR4 4 speed -- 1977-82, Optional in Pacer/Hornet/Gremlin/Concord/Spirit/AMX, sixes only through 1978.  Used behind 304 in 78 and 79. Only manual transmission available starting in 1980. Top shift, shifter in cover.
HR1 4 speed -- 1977-79, Hornet/Gremlin 2.0L four only. Top shift, shifter in cover.
T-4 4 speed -- Replaced the SR4 sometime during 1982. Used with fours and sixes in all models through 1984. Top shift, shifter in cover.
T-5 5 speed -- Optional starting in 1982 with fours and sixes, all models. Standard in 1985-88 Eagles. Top shift, shifter in cover.


NOTES:
1. Because the T-85 and T-89 are virtually the same I can't positively say that the T-89 was not used with OD behind the 327. Could just be the special ratio Twin-Stick T-85 replaced the standard T-89/OD behind the 327. I do know for sure that the T-89 three speed (non OD) was typically used behind the 327.

2. Oddly, the 67 big car TSM shows a T-96 as the 232 transmission, but I believe that was just an editing error. The 65 and 66 big car TSMs clearly show the T-86. The T-96 was barely adequate in the lighter American with 232, and an HD version was made for the 70-72 for the Hornet and Gremlin. I can't imagine that AMC tried to use it in the heavier cars that one year.

I'm going to make a new post for manual transmissions, if you have comments on the above list look for it in the trans section.


Edited by farna - Apr/14/2012 at 10:05am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Exzion Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/14/2012 at 9:56am
If that were true, why would they put the t86  (the "stronger" units) behind the small 6's while the "weaker" T85  unit was used behind the 327, Y Block fords and Big Mopars?  From what I have read, you might have it backwards, the higher the secondary number , the weaker the trans?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote farna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/14/2012 at 10:42am
Could be that I've got it backwards. The T-90 was probably stronger than the T-96. I'm beginning to think that the second number had nothing to do with strength at all, was just a variation of the series as it came out by date, meaning the T-85 may have come out before the T-86 and T-89. I don't know about that though, and I'm not going to spend that much time researching BW numbers now! It's always been held that the T-89 was the stronger of the 8x series, but that doesn't mean it's true. 

Other company's use doesn't really mean anything, nor that the T-85 is strong enough for everyday use behind larger engines. Nash and early AMC designers tended to over build for reliability, it wasn't until the 70s that they started using marginal parts. The T-96 could be called to question, but for the late 50s/early 60s driving standards and power levels it was adequate. Can't expect it to hold up to modern driving, have to look at it in the proper perspective. The 70-72 HD version was marginal with a 232 -- I don't see why AMC even bothered having the HD version made (as far as I know AMC was the only one to use it). AMC just decided to use the T-89 behind the 327 instead of the T-85. What we need to find is someone with a 65 327 three speed with and without OD who will take some photos, or at least crawl under the car and get the numbers. My suspicion is that they will use a T-89 and the T-85 was just used with Twin-Stick 327s because they were special order transmissions due to the gearing, and the T-85 was strong enough. Need some samples to check -- could be that by 65 all the BW/OD trannys were T-85s. Guess we need to check some 327 cars prior to 65 also.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Exzion Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/14/2012 at 10:46am
I agree.Thumbs Up
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Exzion Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/21/2012 at 3:49pm
Update:

What I have been upto.
























Trailer Wheels...



Edited by Exzion - Apr/21/2012 at 3:51pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote farna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/22/2012 at 7:56pm
Well, I see you found the contact points in the solenoid.... 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Exzion Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/23/2012 at 8:15pm
So, I'm having trouble locating a Throwout bearing and a Pilot bushing.  Anyone know of where I could come across these parts for a T85 3-speed?  I know now that they are NOT the same as the 4-speed parts.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Exzion Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/23/2012 at 8:29pm
Putting this here for reference:

1965 Marlin 327 w/ T85 3 Speed Trans:

Pilot Bushing measurements:

ID = ~.790"
OD = 1.091"
Length = 1.125"

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fast401 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/23/2012 at 8:31pm
Do you want to keep the mechanical clutch linkage?  We put a hydralic in my sons Matador.  If you want the specs IIRC I may be able to help you out.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nali Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/23/2012 at 8:43pm
It s funny to see how the parts are so surface rusted, while the paint still looks quite decent. Is it wet in PA ?
What s the red car ? It looks like a nice toy :P
No more car :)
Maybe a 1965 Ambassador Coupé someday .. If I can find a cheap one.
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