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Jeff's Headers using Grace Billet |
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Jmerican
AMC Addicted Joined: Mar/29/2016 Location: Seattle, Wa Status: Offline Points: 585 |
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Form and function-at the junction. Very nice parts and a brilliant concept.
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jtsllc1
AMC Addicted Joined: Sep/24/2013 Location: ORFORDVILLE WI Status: Offline Points: 1037 |
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I would like to say everything you stated is spot on... I found coating the headers to have more benefits than just keeping the heat in the pipes to increase velocity. I also found it very beneficial to keep the engine compartment temp drastically down, the coating is worth every penny. I think Headers by Ed is correct if the step caused the exhaust temp to cool would slow down the velocity. I found that pipe size is also related to the RPM range along with the power range. After testing the 1 5/8 made the most HP all the way up to 5800 RPM at which point the 1 3/4 took off making more power. So in order to have a good average from 3500 RPM to 6800 RPM a stepped header was selected and ceramic coating would keep the highest temps in the pipes for velocity. One more thing Headers by Ed did extensive testing with is the cone on the collector. He kept reducing the dia. smaller and smaller and the car kept going faster and faster. Jim Dugan made me a venturi insert reducing the hat of the Super Scavenger Collector he made at 3.0" down to 2.5". The purpose of this was to create a low pressure and draw the exhaust out. He also explained to have the pipes aligned in a rotational firing order to create a swirl in order to get more flow. At the Engine Masters Challenge I have seen how this is achieved getting around the rules of coarse after the fact...LOL.. The person who won was hitting 570HP with his 1 5/8 headers. When the spectators said I was one of 3 who were lifting the 10 inch exhaust pipes off the jack stands out side the building I new there was more power to be gained. I have found the ram effect to include intake runner size and length which is where the Pro Flo 2 came into play and did its job. This came about by a patent attorney who took fluid dynamics at Yale. Turns out he was correct and the number doubled. Turns out the smaller runner intake un ported is spot on with Edelbrocks 1500 -7000 RPM range and like Terry said there is a 500 RPM fudge factor and it took the SS 290 to confirm the intake was good for 7500 RPM. So I guess my question would be what is the best actual size intake runner for the majority and is the Patent attorney correct that runner size goes hand & hand with primary pipe size which goes hand & hand with the RPM range and the length of the primary pipes fine tunes in the peak torque RPM? All testing was done with an X pipe 3" exhaust system and the difference between 18' collector extensions and exhaust system was no more than 5 HP.
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JTSLLC1
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White70JavelinSST
Supporter of TheAMCForum Joined: Aug/08/2012 Location: Minnesota Status: Offline Points: 4867 |
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Grace Billet and Jeff's Headers make a winning combo, and look great doing it ! Two questions 1. Is there any reason to think that this design wouldn't work for road racing? 2. Has anyone tried 180 degree headers on an AMC V8 and what were the results?
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70 Javelin SST, second owner, purchased 1972
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74Bubblefender
AMC Addicted Charter Member Joined: Jun/29/2007 Location: The AMC form Status: Offline Points: 2589 |
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Beautiful work..really nice!!
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We are just about to forge new AMC V8 crankshafts.. please check here
http://www.bulltear.com/forums/showthread.php?19564 |
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amcenthusiast
AMC Addicted Joined: Jul/02/2012 Location: SW Atlanta GA Status: Offline Points: 1778 |
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Hmm, savory brain food posted by jtsllc1 -thanks.
I couldn't tell by looking at the pics if the header pipes are high tech coated or chrome -thanks for taking no offense. I was just reading EPI's article on exhaust system technology and found this quote which I thought was applicable to this discussion: http://www.epi-eng.com/piston_engine_technology/exhaust_system_technology.htm "Whenever the pressure wave encounters a change in cross-sectional area of the pipe, a reflected pressure wave is generated, which travels in the opposite direction" ...The man's an excellent technical writer and one of my favorite teachers for all his excellent explanations. As far as the interplay between induction and scavenging systems on this drag race AMX, I'd say there is more swirl flow designed into '66-'91 AMV8 cylinder heads than is commonly known. I think D. Elgin (D. Elgin Racing cams) would enjoy cutting a cam for your engine. He knows AMV8 like nobody else because he attended an SAE speech given by AM engineer who designed '66-'91 AMV8 cylinder heads. (surprise-surprise) In my estimation, he's one of the few highly educated professional cam grinders who actually favors American Motors engines enough to advocate their merits. I'd say, he's the 'go to guy' in our AMC world right now if you need a cam cut specifically for your custom built engine. https://elgincams.com/ 'Grace Billet'? -Looking good! More power to you. I'm always an admirer of your work with that AMX. Super cool/Love it. |
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443 XRV8 Gremlin YouTube video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?reload=9&v=2DmFOKRuzUc
XRV8 Race Parts website: http://amcramblermarlin.1colony.com/ |
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Boris Badanov
AMC Addicted Joined: Dec/14/2013 Location: NH USA Status: Offline Points: 4209 |
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Pretty job, but those collectors look a bit restrictive.
But they are eye candy for sure. |
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Gremlin Dreams
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jtsllc1
AMC Addicted Joined: Sep/24/2013 Location: ORFORDVILLE WI Status: Offline Points: 1037 |
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1) Turns out Jim Paschal (NASCAR GT) used a similar design except he used 1 5/8 primary pipes and Jim got it to work well with the Cross Ram winning 7 out of 8 races. Most important he figured out you need to finish the race to win the race. The Grace Billet on Jeff's headers create a venturi effect providing even more flow. Plus the Grace Billet eliminates the need for a header gasket so there will be no issue blowing the gasket out and risking damage to the exhaust valve. 2) I have discussed the 180 deg. but I ended up thinking about having 2 sets of 2 into 1 on each side with a balance tube between each side so that would require 2 balance tubes. Penske did this on his Javelin but he had to modify the bell housing to allow one balance tube and the other was after the trans cross member. Allison also had some piping going on with his Hornet.
Edited by jtsllc1 - Nov/11/2019 at 5:21am |
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JTSLLC1
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jtsllc1
AMC Addicted Joined: Sep/24/2013 Location: ORFORDVILLE WI Status: Offline Points: 1037 |
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I was lucky to hook up with Jim Dugan who was one of the pioneers of Racing. Dugan was contracted by Mickey Thompson, Penske, Carol Shelby etc.etc..... Jim was a mentor and filled me in on his years of experience of what works and what does not. Jim has several patents including the Super Scavenger collector so we joined together and came up with Grace / Dugan Equipped. Jim owns a header manufacturing facility and re made the die to re produce his original Super Scavenger Collector. Jim produced the Super Scavenger Header for M/T back in the day to be used on a Javelin M/T Equipped for an AMC dealer. Unfortunately Jim passed away before I went to the Engine Masters Challenge. His wife decided to keep Jim's business running after his passing as long as the Employees were on board. The testing I have done leans toward a 1 5/8 stepped to 1 3/4 with a total primary pipe length of 30". The primary pipe lengths are equalized in the new Super Scavenger slip on collector with a venturi hat. The venturi hat reduces to 2.5 " and backup to 3" with a V band to connect to 3" exhaust. I have tested and found no problems handling 500+ HP allowing for a 3 piece per side 30 minute install. Engle Cams did the Traco AMC and Chevrolet engines along with NASCAR engines except Bobby Allison used Reed Cams and he ended up building his own engines resulting in more HP. As of today Spiro Jennings of Red Line Cams who got allot of his education while working at Engle Cams from John also favors AMC. I quickly learned at the Engine Masters I was competing against engines who use Spiro cams. I guess it was a bonding experience because everyone at breakfast has Spiro's number in their phones. They did say Spiro has an unconventional way but he makes HP and we all know if you are not making HP you are just farting in the wind. Adkins Uses Comp Cams and Red Line, Spiro was able to grind a cam reducing spring pressure resulting in longer lasting springs and some extra HP. Spiro also ground Jeff's best cam for Stock Eliminator with .457 lift the 390 dyno numbers were 555HP with an R4B and was tested to 8500 RPM only losing 8 HP. Spiro also ground the roller cam in Jeff's current Super Stock combo and all Jeff has to say is it has a .500 base circle and the lifts are .850/.825. Who knows maybe the SS 290 will run Spiro's grind in the future. Edited by jtsllc1 - Nov/11/2019 at 5:30am |
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JTSLLC1
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one bad rambler
AMC Addicted Joined: Jan/09/2008 Location: On The Island Status: Offline Points: 2007 |
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Those Are Sweet!!!!
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68 AMX 390 4 Speed,68 American,64 American 2 Door Wagon Altered Wheelbase,78 Concord Build 360,727,8.8
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klvn8r
AMC Apprentice Joined: Feb/26/2012 Location: Texas Status: Offline Points: 160 |
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FWIW....I have the underhood pictures of the Paschal Javelin and the 'weird' "headers", along with the GM style front stub. There's a fair chance that they've been posted before, or someone made copies. klvn8r
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