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Flat head combustion chamber |
Post Reply | Page <1 678910 11> |
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wittsend
AMC Nut Joined: Apr/15/2020 Location: California Status: Offline Points: 422 |
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Quite true. Overwhelmingly people just see a car as transportation. However, there are men that become nostalgic and therefore dare I say emotion over these hunks of rolling steel. And once emotions come into play reason goes right out the door. (Note, the author of this post has been self descriptive but is trying to hide from that reality)
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'63 American Hardtop
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43n
AMC Fan Joined: Feb/28/2021 Location: Mesa AZ Status: Offline Points: 29 |
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Rambler American Flathead plan:
These are the changes that I intend to make once I purchase a Rambler American to use as a hobby driver several times per week… Not as a daily driver… Not for motorsports I am looking for the “reliability”and “bang for the buck” as expressed by comments before in this thread. I hesitate to refer to this List as “improvements”… (Just changes)… Until they have proven themselves My assumption is an engine with good compression… Automatic transmission… And a vehicle only needing routine maintenance 1 install Holley/Weber 2barrel carb… I have a NOS Ford Pinto carb on my shelf along with an aluminum 2bbl to 1bbl adapter 2 Cold air intake 3 MSD ignition with compatable coil… One I used on a Ford 6 pickup for many years...the points last forever since they are just a trigger... minimal current draw 4 Longer reach spark plugs… Try to move the ignition point further down into the “dome” in the combustion chamber 5 Clutch fan with shroud 6 Header with 2 1/4” exhaust through lower restriction muffler 7 Air fuel ratio gauge with O2 sensor Looking for your feedback… Ideas… And comments Thanks! |
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tomj
AMC Addicted Joined: Jan/27/2010 Location: earth Status: Offline Points: 7544 |
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The bigger carb will kill the motor. It simply cannot pump that much fluid to make velocity in that big venturi (pair). Likewise the exhaust will have no effect. If you rev it to 4000 rpm -- probably not for long -- given the typical volumetric efficiency of a flathead at 75%, it will pump 170 cfm with wide-open-throttle. Unless you plan quite radical port adn head work and a wild cam it will not flow for you.
That flathead will not exceed the flow capability of that stock carburetor. I'm deeply skeptical of peoples' seat of the pants claims. I want numbers, non drag-strip, who drives like that on the street? Junk carb, junk results. And most of them are very old, so there's a lot of junk. Big carbs do not make power. Filling cylinders with fuel/air makes power. The engine draws it in, the carb does not push it in. The best thing about the flathead, and the OHV too, is all it's torque available by around 1800 rpm. Work with that! It's not HP that turns the wheels, it's torque. A LARGE electric fan might save you .1 to .5 hp. My advice is to build a stock motor for endurance -- oversized radiator (so-called, you can't really be too big). Spend the $250 on a Champion aluminum radiator. This will make your car "faster" by letting you to work the engine hard without overheating. The drag-race mentality looks for peak power, which is a specific application, not a good rule for a driver. It's common experience that hauling a** up a steelp grade in hot weather is hard work on a little engine, then it overheats and you gotta slow down. So keep it cool, you don't have to slow down (as much) and voila! free power! Take that distributor out, completely disassemble it, gun-brush the bore, oil it, make it smooth, and stick a Pertronix Ignitor II (note the 2!) in it. Then any decent coil -- the II auto-adjusts dwell for maximum coil charge-up. Done and done. Spark can't gain power, but bad spark loses it. All you can do is not lose. But first, use a spreadsheet or a good online calculator that shows you RPM vs tires vs MPH at various RPM/MPH combos and in 2nd and 3rd. Then dial in what you can -- tire size. It's all a dreadful compromise, big engine or small. And the factory did a pretty good job of extracting the most from an engine/trans/tire combo, if you vary from it, you ought to know exactly what effect it iwll have before you start. When you start with 80, 90 hp there's not a lot of room for error! lol. Edited by tomj - Apr/22/2021 at 1:09am |
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1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto
1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5 http://www.ramblerLore.com |
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43n
AMC Fan Joined: Feb/28/2021 Location: Mesa AZ Status: Offline Points: 29 |
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Good points… Well taken! Will advise of any results and post them
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wittsend
AMC Nut Joined: Apr/15/2020 Location: California Status: Offline Points: 422 |
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Ironic that even with my daily driver (2000 Protege) I was told the same thing on the Mazda Performance Forums. That being 'the engine was built to a specific purpose.' The throttle body size, port size, the cam specs., valve size were a finely tuned "matched set." Any attempt to increase one (or many) bought little to no increase in power as elsewhere down the line was a bottleneck - or the additional air created a negative effect. That said the manufactures likely leave a "Margin" of protection in the tune. I found an article regarding the Miata (that my engine is very closely related to) and a 4 degree ignition advance and a 3 degree Intake cam advance garnered a FEW horsepower. Both were accomplish with a file elongating the bolt holes on the ignition timing wheel and the cam pulley alignment pin. The Butt Dyno says there is a marginally noticeable increase in the mid RPM range. With that in mind it is a thankful thing that many of the motors we do have respond well to modifications. But whether the flathead or my much newer Mazda motor lets just say of those, 'a screwdriver will never make a good pry bar.'
Edited by wittsend - Apr/23/2021 at 11:00am |
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'63 American Hardtop
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tomj
AMC Addicted Joined: Jan/27/2010 Location: earth Status: Offline Points: 7544 |
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Of course you are right -- I guess I overstated it. Of course there's plenty of room for improvements but often you're exchanging one thing for another. But metal and fuel were cheap.
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1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto
1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5 http://www.ramblerLore.com |
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wittsend
AMC Nut Joined: Apr/15/2020 Location: California Status: Offline Points: 422 |
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No. You didn't overstate anything at all. I was in agreement with you ("the factory did a pretty good job of extracting the most from an engine"). I was just saying that even many years later after the flathead was designed/built that some engines (My Mazda engine) STILL have limitations for addition power because of the overall (intended) design.
My additional dialogue was simply to say tweaking the tune a bit did garner a slight increase but overall things like a bigger throttle body or wilder cams would show little or no return on the investment.
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'63 American Hardtop
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farna
Supporter of TheAMCForum Moderator Lost Dealership Project Joined: Jul/08/2007 Location: South Carolina Status: Offline Points: 19676 |
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1. That carb might help as it's not very big, and the original one may well be about worn out. Better yet, you can get a new Carter YF from Daytona. Wit the little Pinto two-stage Holley Weber you will hardly ever need the second barrel as the engine doesn't pull much, but it won't hurt. 2. The cold air intake is really a moot point. The flathead originally came with a totally open air filter, at least the later 61-63 models did. Not exactly a cold air intake, but nothing restricting it either. With the intake built into the head it gets warm pretty quick without heating the incoming air. 3. The old MSD spark will work fine, and as you said, only uses points for a low voltage trigger. I must contend that the Pertronix II is a much better solution, but if you have the MSD already you may as well use it. 4. There is no "dome" of the combustion chamber on the flathead. Hard to describe -- just look at one. This link shows an aftermarket (and very rare today!) Edmunds dual carb head. you can see where the sparkers are. They are right between the valves, over near the cylinder. If the spark plug hole were moved over it would be over the valve head itself. A longer spark plug probably won't help, but as long as it doesn't contact anything I don't think it would hurt. 5. The water pump wasn't made to support a clutch fan. Might not last long with the extra weight. If anything get a flex fan or one of the Flex-A-Lite single piece nylon fans. Better yet an electric fan. A shroud with the stock fan will improve cooling noticeably though. 6. Those things have a 1-7/8" head pipe. That fit neatly inside a 2" pipe. All I'd do is run a 2" exhaust and turbo muffler. The original muffler was a large three pass that's very restrictive and quiet. Opening up the exhaust won't help much, but may a little at higher speeds. Edmunds made "fittings" that bolted to the block where the exhaust pipe clamps are and had fittings for 1-7/8 pipes so you could make your own headers. Only seen a set once! You could put a T between the first and second exhaust ports and run a second pipe, or just cut the end cap off the front and run a second pipe from there, then into a two in one out muffler. Not going to be much help, nothing noticeable over the single 2" with turbo muffler for sure, but would be neat looking. Oh, there is a brace rod from a bell housing bolt to the exhaust pipe. That HAS to be there or the head pipe will crack at the rear exhaust port. Don't ask how I know... 7. A/F gauge will be helpful when tuning the carb for sure!
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Frank Swygert
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tomj
AMC Addicted Joined: Jan/27/2010 Location: earth Status: Offline Points: 7544 |
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All excellent points.
I put a plastic "RV" flex fan on my 68. It weighs nothing and costs $25. It moves noticably more air and won't shake the pump to death. I'm building a mostly-stock 195.6 OHV for my new 60 wagon, I'll probably use a mechanical pump and this same fan. It's a 1965 so it has the head-to-block circulation built in. |
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1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto
1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5 http://www.ramblerLore.com |
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farna
Supporter of TheAMCForum Moderator Lost Dealership Project Joined: Jul/08/2007 Location: South Carolina Status: Offline Points: 19676 |
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That plastic RV fan is most likely a Flex-A-Lite. Haven't seen one made by anyone else, but there may be (or may have been) another manufacturer. Smallest I could find is a 14". The original fan is only 11-12", IIRC... may have been as little as a 10" across (diameter). Four blades unless with AC. |
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Frank Swygert
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