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Factory Carter AFB CFM Ratings Chart/Rebuild pics. |
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bigbad69
Supporter of TheAMCForum Joined: Jul/02/2007 Location: Ottawa, Ont. Status: Offline Points: 6669 |
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From my 69 TSM:
All AFBs used by AMC had 1 7/16" primary bore and 1 11/16" secondary bore and had a 1 9/16" secondary venturi. 290s had 1 1/16" primary venturi, 343, 390s had 1 3/16" primary venturi. Jets and metering rods varied by engine size and trans. Since the venturis, jets and metering rods are removable, you should be able to make a 390 4-speed carb out of a 290 auto carb. The flow rating of the 290 carb would logically be different from the 343 390 carbs because of the different size primary venturi. The TSM does not have flow ratings. I have a vague recollection of reading something about the CFM rating being different between Carter and Holley. They measured it at different vacuum levels. Carters had lower CFM ratings than equivalent Holley carbs. I don't remember the source so it could be BS. I'm not sure. Regardless, CFM ratings without pressure drop, as PHAT touched on, are as meaningful as advertised duration for a cam. It's just a number. So stressing over Corvette carbs being 575 CFM and 343 carbs being 625 is really a waste of time. As PMM said, CFM is determined by carb only. Changing ratings by engine CID, if indeed that is true, is merely some sort of marketing gimmick, and also not worth worrying about. |
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69 Javelin SST BBO 390 T10
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348AMX
AMC Addicted Joined: Jul/03/2007 Location: Massachusetts Status: Offline Points: 4165 |
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On all of the Buick, ford, mopar, etc, chevy sites that deal in old muscle cars ALL of them have discussed this topic at one point or another and there were no CFM ratings advertised on the carter carbs of that era with the exception of the 64-65 corvette 327 wich in that application was 575 CFM at whatever method they tested at etc etc.
The question about this CFM chart by carter wich btw I also found on several other websites has this 1 1/4 primary venturi 575 carb.. none of the AMC AFB's had it.
My guess is that depending on the size of the engine the secondary valves may or may not fully open and that is what is meant by the carter carbs flowing different CFM totals on certain motors? This is how the aftermarket AFB's were ultimately advertised-the secondary velocity valve allows only the amount of CFM that the engine demands-I remember the ads vividly. The 290's no doubt had a smaller AFB, my guess is though that the 390 and 343 had a 625 and that that is what they are capable of flowing if the engine will demand the airflow and pull the air valve all the way open. Several of the larger carburator restoration company websites also explain that AFB muscle car carbs were not rated in terms of CFM. That settles that I guess/ To do an accurate independed CFM test today youd need to know the exact method of testing and you coudl probalby get all kinds of different results for the same carb, and you would need to be able to measure the CFM and get an accurate number. The manufactureres of the carbs already did that for the respective carb numbers.
When the "aftermarket" AFBs came out the same size venturi and bore combos as the 343 and 390 carbs were 625 CFM on the competition series carbs. A LOT of the new edelbrock parts interchange with the AMC OE AFBs , you can use an edelbrock performance tuning kit by using the flat step up rod cover and edelbrock jets and rods to replace the older AFB raised primary jets and 3 stage longer step up rods and raised cover. This gives you lots of jets and rods to choose from. The venturis interchange, the difference being the edelbrock carbs have a bottom feed booster and the carters have front feed. The secondary air valve and throttle plates too. The accelerator pump parts also interchange except for the shooters wich on an older afb mate flat to the air horn casting. On the edelbrocks there is a round casting on the back of the shooter that would have to be ground flat to fit on an older AFB, the newer shooters have longer squirters that put the pimp shot closer to the venturi. You can also use electric chokes from the new carbs to retrofit. The idle screws do not interchange, the newer edelbrock carbs have longer ones. Also the new edelbrock gaskets are slightly different for the main body, they cover the hole at the very front of the older AFB's.
One thing about the older AFB that you need to look out for is the vacuum passage in the primary bore that leads to the choke housing. It will cause a vacuum leak if not being used. I made a small gasket and placed it between the carb flange and choke housing so no vacuum can leak. I am still going to install the choke housing cover and heater tube bracket for a stock appearance. I am almost done with the rebuild, installed the annodized parts off the 750 such as the acc pump linkage and cover screws and secondary linkage. I am going to richen the jetting over the stock jets. Should be a very torquey combo. Edited by 348AMX - Feb/22/2008 at 12:56am |
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Ram Air Rick
Supporter of TheAMCForum Joined: Jul/04/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2668 |
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348,
I found some of the information that backs up what I had said earlier ,basically saying that it is possible for the carbs to flow different cfm from one application to the other.
I'm thinking that what is implied is that early on they weren't hung up on classifing things like cfm,but later on ,and Carter was probably a late comer to this,they set up standards for that measurement and did.
Of course I found it where else,but in my Carter Carburetor book,by Dave Emanuel.
I will print the information that led me to the conclusion of what I said before,and you can see if my interpretation is correct ,incorrect,or somewhere in between.
Not a cop out here ,but I'm baked right now and just don't feel like doing all the typing. I may try to scan it out of the book tommorrow and get it up here ,but if that fails,I will type it out.
I'll try and get it up here in the next couple of days.
While this info. may not prove to be totally conclusive,it will help to bring some sense to all this.
Rich C. Edited by Ram Air Rick - Jan/27/2008 at 11:19am |
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348AMX
AMC Addicted Joined: Jul/03/2007 Location: Massachusetts Status: Offline Points: 4165 |
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Did a little more research myself on that corvette 327 carter AFB. There were 2 versions of the hi po 327, a 300 horse and 340 horse, they both used the 575 CFM AFB the differnce being the calibration for the horsepower differences. The 1 1/4 vetnuri is correct and they actually had a LARGER booster wich in effect took up more of the bore and that is why they had a lower CFM than the 625 wich had a smaller booster. That being said the 343-390 carbs were the larger of the AFB's in the "600 CFM range". But I read some other online articles about magazine flow tests in the late 60's that the flow tests results showed anywhere from 600-680. The 290's would have to have been the "500 CFM" version.
290 AFB's were in the 500 CFM rating category
343-390's used the 625 CFM rating equivalent carbs
Non of the AMC AFB's used 1 1/4 PBV so non of the AMC AFB's were 575CFM category carbs. Interesting stuff finally some hard facts! Edited by 348AMX - Feb/01/2008 at 9:25am |
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Ram Air Rick
Supporter of TheAMCForum Joined: Jul/04/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2668 |
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Well, true to my word,albeit late, I finally got some of the information together,regarding cfm ratings and the like.
The info. posted here now,was taken from Supertuning and Modifying Carter Carburetors by Dave Emanuel 1988 version ,Last print?.
Anyhow,some of what I had posted before, is backed up by what these pages say.
Page 9 relates how early on in the AFB's history (1957- late 60's ),Carter did not list specific air flow ratings, for their carbs./ AFB's.
Page 11 Has the chart which clearly backs up what 348AMX has been saying all along in that the 390 carbs.,with their Venturi bore diameters of
(P)1-3/16" and (S) 1-9/16" and throttle bore diameters of (P) 1-7/16's and (S) 1-11/16" is 625 CFM rated.
Those were the physical characteristics of the newer aftermarket carbs.,that Carter sold.See previous chart that 348AMX posted with AMC part numbered listings to get diameter listings.
Good call 348 !!!
Page 16 Refers to the standards that were created to calculate cfm in two and four barrel carbs,and touches on how a certain engine may not realize the carbs full cfm rating.See text. I think that those standsards were probably adopted in the late 60's but were still not universally used yet at that time.
Page 17 Somewhat backs up what I was saying about the same carburetors cfm having a different rating,depending on what engine (CID) and Volumetric efficiency it is used on.
Hope this helps,and makes sense.
Rich Corsello
Edited by Ram Air Rick - Feb/04/2008 at 11:14am |
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bigbad69
Supporter of TheAMCForum Joined: Jul/02/2007 Location: Ottawa, Ont. Status: Offline Points: 6669 |
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I have the same book. I interperate the text on pp16,17 as the process for calculating the required carb size for a given engine, not the amount a given carb will flow in a certain size engine.
I still maintain that a carb flow rating is independent of the engine. While an individual carb may flow differently depending upon the engine its mounted on, the carb's ability to flow air is constant. |
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69 Javelin SST BBO 390 T10
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348AMX
AMC Addicted Joined: Jul/03/2007 Location: Massachusetts Status: Offline Points: 4165 |
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Ram Air Rick,
What a great addition to this thread!! Thanks for taking the time to post those specs from the emanuel book! I think we have just created the best resource for AFB CFM information of any other Muscle car website I have been to, nobody has as much info on the musscle car AFB's as th is thread does!. Its all RIGHT HERE now on theamcforum.com!! The downside is we may have single handedly made the price of OE AFB's go up I never knew about the 3 barrel AFB, THAT was interesting.
A lot of people probably removed their OE 343-390 AFB's thinking they were only 500 CFM LOL! Just look at the factory advertised torque ratings and tell me AMC didnt pick the right size carbs for the 343 and 390! It is very interesting muscle car engine production/development history. Thanks again for backing me up and posting that valuable information! Edited by 348AMX - Feb/05/2008 at 11:10pm |
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Ram Air Rick
Supporter of TheAMCForum Joined: Jul/04/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2668 |
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348 AMX,
I'm really glad that you started this thread,and that we finally got to the bottom of at least the cfm debate.
The earlier post that you put up on the AMC AFB carb specs., finally opened my eyes .That's a juicy bit of info. in itself. Where did you come up with it?
I will admit that I was leaning toward the carb being of the lower cfm (575),but I can now say with certainty that they were 625 cfm.
I tried to edit my previous post to make the first and fourth image as large as the second and third,with no luck.I hope that those pages are readable.
Rich C.
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348AMX
AMC Addicted Joined: Jul/03/2007 Location: Massachusetts Status: Offline Points: 4165 |
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The print is small but easily readable. May I ask a favor? In that book do they recommend blocking the hot idle air compensator valve?? This is the "winged" valve in between the secondary boosters.
As for the primaries there are 2 types of boosters; one without distribution tabs and one with, they are small aluminum strips installed at the bottom of the boosters to aid fuel distribution, does that book mention them at all?
Thanks!
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Ram Air Rick
Supporter of TheAMCForum Joined: Jul/04/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2668 |
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