TheAMCForum.com Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > The Garage > AMC 6 Cylinder Engine Repair and Modifications
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - E-Stick oil pump in a 195.6 OHV
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Click for TheAMCForum Rules / Click for PDF version of Forum Rules
Your donations help keep this valuable resource free and growing. Thank you.

E-Stick oil pump in a 195.6 OHV

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234>
Author
Message
tomj View Drop Down
AMC Addicted
AMC Addicted
Avatar

Joined: Jan/27/2010
Location: earth
Status: Offline
Points: 7522
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tomj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug/11/2021 at 9:22pm
It's awkward, but you can remove and replace the oil pump on-car.

There is no issue at all removing that one bolt to get the idler arm pivot unbolted, and lowered out of the way. I just did this a week or so ago.

* Take the nut off (3/4" wrench) and tap the bolt enough out so that the idler arm is freed. THe pivot has a little finger that fits into a hole, that locates it, which the big bolt holds it down. ALl you gotta do is drop it low enough to clear the pump.

* take the bolts out of the pump first. Then the cover slides out.

* To get the pump body out -- if you need to -- bonk it loose from the block (gasket cement) pull it out a bit, then rotate it 180 degrees.  Now the pump will pull out.

* Assembly is the reverse.


ALl the oil pump cover gaskets "look the same". But they are not the same at all. They look the same because the design is the same, but the dimensions and details vary. The gasket looks symetrical but it's not -- if you place it on the pump body, you'll see that one side has a different shape, and some of the gasket area is very thin, and needs all the coverage it can get.

Not only, the cover gaskets are different thicknesses too. the "regular" one is .009. E-Stick is .012" I was lucky to find a used pump still assembled; I'm using .015". I don't know what the 1965 gasket thickness is, but probably .009. I have 0.010" coming from Olsen.


GIven that no one's hardly seen the other pumps, it's really simple -- match the gasket to the pump, make sure everything lines up exactly. If not, flip it over. If it still doesn't, don't proceed.



Edited by tomj - Aug/11/2021 at 9:50pm
1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto
1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5
http://www.ramblerLore.com

Back to Top
1958 rambler super View Drop Down
AMC Addicted
AMC Addicted
Avatar

Joined: Dec/10/2020
Location: Victoria BC can
Status: Online
Points: 1193
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 1958 rambler super Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug/12/2021 at 8:22pm
I think your steering components doffer from mine, illl post a pic tomorrow, but I couldn't follow yor method.
Here's the pic, it's a darn good one too, after that I muscled the fastners off and moved that piece out of the way. Your I structuctions were specified towards the idler arm itself. The piece I moved was not really the idler arm but was attached to it, unless that's what you meant the whole time maybe we have different steeri g parts to work with.
Anyways, I got that off then swung it out of the way and pulled out the pump, I didn't bother putting the new gasket on because this other gasket now has been destroyed.....:( 
This pump to block gasket measured with my caliper measures on average 0.015 inches thick, and is thicker in some places since it got more crunched up in different places. I'll start my hunt tonight..... Found it less then five minutes later here: https://www.olsonsgaskets.com/products/?application=automotive&make=amc&cylinder=6&model=rambler&page=1





Edited by 1958 rambler super - Aug/12/2021 at 9:56pm
Back to Top
farna View Drop Down
Supporter of TheAMCForum
Supporter of TheAMCForum
Avatar
Moderator Lost Dealership Project

Joined: Jul/08/2007
Location: South Carolina
Status: Offline
Points: 19611
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote farna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug/13/2021 at 7:19am
Tom has an American, you have the big car. The idler arm bracket is a bit different, but the idler arm doesn't affect steering geometry much at all (well, as long as it's the correct arm and bushings are good). So moving it isn't an issue no matter what car you have. This pretty much applies to all makes with similar steering setups.
Frank Swygert
Back to Top
1958 rambler super View Drop Down
AMC Addicted
AMC Addicted
Avatar

Joined: Dec/10/2020
Location: Victoria BC can
Status: Online
Points: 1193
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 1958 rambler super Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug/13/2021 at 9:08am
Ahhhh, I see! Anyways, I thought it out and got the same results he was trying to help me with, I'm thinking of not repacking the pump untill very close to the start up, so the Vaseline doesn't get too liquified from the summer heat, maybe I'll even put some Vaseline in the fridge to make it extra thick before I jam it in the pump.
You ever packed a pump with vaseline beofre farna? It's messy.
Back to Top
tomj View Drop Down
AMC Addicted
AMC Addicted
Avatar

Joined: Jan/27/2010
Location: earth
Status: Offline
Points: 7522
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tomj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug/13/2021 at 10:05pm
I did forget you had a Super. I don't know those at all. Sorry for the misdirect, but glad you worked it out anyway.


That is the WRONG gasket for your engine and pump. That is a 1965-only pump base gasket.

You're lucky you did not run this engine it would have been a disaster, oil everywhere, and none in the bearings.

I guess no one told you that dry-fitting all gaskets before adding sealer and bolting down is standard procedure. Absolutely make sure every single hole lines up perfectly (PERFECTLY) and if not, understand why. And understand the functioning of each and every part. That last may be a tall order, esp. for your first engine build, but you didn't start with an AMC 232, or a Toyota 22R, you chose a very difficult engine to rebuild. No one knows anything and no one has parts. My expert machinist was shocked that I could find parts, as he could not find a single part to rebuild, no valves, rings, pistons, bearings, lifters, ...

You really can't blindly trust even experts. Me either. I make mistakes and measure wrong all the time. It's information for you to match up to your local reality. If that base gasket came from Olsen, they sent the wrong part and don't know what they are selling, or you asked for the wrong part, somehow, but I imagine at least once in your conversation you uttered "nineteen fifty eight".


Below is a 1965-only oil pump base gasket.




II do not have a "common" 195.6 oil pump base gasket. I cut them as I need them. But here's the common pump, used and oily, from a 61 engine I think. I oriented it top-up so that all the photos have the same alignment in this post.

Ignoring the three bolt holes, and the big pump drive boss, see the two holes, about 5/16" or 3/8"? TOP is pump output to main gallery. BOTTOM is draw up from the pan/pickup. (There's an extra hole in the gasket, often anyway, that you can see via it's lack of residue, to the left of and between the two holes.)



This is the bottom of a 1965-only oil pump (the two hose fittings on top are not stock). Note that it's MUCH larger, and a totally different OUTPUT configuration though it has identical bolt holes, and significantly, identical pickup (inlet) hole.

The output here is up that dogleg at 10 o'clock. The block is much wider here too, and the 1965 gasket seals all that.



Here's the 65 pump with gasket mostly dry-fit.















Edited by tomj - Aug/13/2021 at 10:39pm
1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto
1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5
http://www.ramblerLore.com

Back to Top
1958 rambler super View Drop Down
AMC Addicted
AMC Addicted
Avatar

Joined: Dec/10/2020
Location: Victoria BC can
Status: Online
Points: 1193
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 1958 rambler super Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug/14/2021 at 12:18am
Soooooo.... God.... So when I get those gaskets, they will be the wrong ones, so I geuss what I should do is ask what you think would be appropriate thickeness of gasket paper, and make one as I look down at the pump sitting on my little makeshift work bench and make sure the gasket is perfectly cut around all bolt holes and other holes.
Right? 
If the builder put that gasket on (and he did, he put the new oil pump on when he was assembling the engine, so I didn't put the oil pump, head and intake gaskets or oil pan or timing cover gaskets on) , I wonder if he made sure it was a good match, or if he just winged it, I dunno.... Anyways, I hope nothing else in that engine was put together wrong as the builder didn't know enough about such a old engine. You say your builder was shocked you could get all your parts, I wonder where this builder got his parts from to rebuild my engine.....
Anyways, it sucks I already ordered those new gaskets from Olson's AJ they will be the wrong ones.... So the pump I have is definitely not a 1960's pump right tomj?
You want me to take the pump off again and show you some detailed pics of it on "the bench" both outer and inner of it? Maybe clean up the Vaseline alittle?


Edited by 1958 rambler super - Aug/14/2021 at 12:22am
Back to Top
farna View Drop Down
Supporter of TheAMCForum
Supporter of TheAMCForum
Avatar
Moderator Lost Dealership Project

Joined: Jul/08/2007
Location: South Carolina
Status: Offline
Points: 19611
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote farna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug/14/2021 at 5:38pm
All the oil pumps are the same EXCEPT for the 1965 full flow oil filter model. Flat-head and OHV use the same pump too. The E-stick pump is slightly different -- it has a longer pump body and corresponding gears and a very different pump cover, but will bolt in place of any other pump.

As stated -- the 1965 full flow filter pump for the 196 is unique to the 1965 produced engine -- block and pump housing are different even though they look the same from the top and will physically bolt up. The different oil passages on the block will cause it to quickly pump oil on the ground if used on a pre 65 block without modification. I think it will work with a drilled plate between block and pump to block the extra passage, but I haven't tried it or even looked closely at it. I've never had a 1965 196 in my possession.
Frank Swygert
Back to Top
tomj View Drop Down
AMC Addicted
AMC Addicted
Avatar

Joined: Jan/27/2010
Location: earth
Status: Offline
Points: 7522
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tomj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug/14/2021 at 9:18pm
Originally posted by 1958 rambler super 1958 rambler super wrote:

So when I get those gaskets, they will be the wrong ones?
Sadly that is likely to be the case. Open the package carefully to verify, and you should be able to return them, pointing out that they are selling the wrong parts. 

Im many cases it's really easy to make gaskets. So easy it's not worth buying them. Some are hard, or impossible (eg. headgaskets).

For the BASE, ordinary .015 gasket paper is fine. You should have an X-acto knife -- the real kind, brand name, nice solid aluminum handle, and a bunch of the pointy triangular blades. Don't scrimp. THe expensive tool is like $10. Theyt're like scalpels, they are precision tools. You need the thin wedge tip type. I buy 100 blades in a box for $15 (last time, probably more now).

I'll see if I can take some photos on how to do this. Its easy, hard to explain.

I store my gasket paper on the door of a steel cabinet, held with a magnet so it's always flat.

For the BASE basket, cut a rectangle a little too large with scissors. The base has a big hole for the casting that inserts into the block. Measure it's size. Use a compass, or find something the same size, and trace it out on the paper "in the right spot". Cut that with scissors. It won't be pretty, or precise, but make it tight, nip out bits til it fits without distorting, then stop. It doesn't have to be pretty there.



NOW push the paper over the pump. (Should be clean and dry.) (You should be doing this well before assembly.) 



FIRST THING use the xacto blade straight up and down to poke into one of the bolt holes. Run the blade, sawing up and down a bit, and cut the paper out to the edges of the hole. Blade is flat against the inside of the hole. Takes practice but easy. Hold the knife exactly vertical and trim the hole neat and round.

Now drop a (clean) bolt into the hole. The gasket paper is now indexed to the pump. DO the same cutting thing to cut the other bolt holes. Drop bolts in each. 



Now the gasket won't shift around, and you can easily do the same to the two remaining precise oil holes.

Then trim the outside. FLip the pump over -- bolts holding gasket in place -- and trace with pencil, and trim with scissors.



Likely this will dull one or two blades. That's the cost of a gasket. That's why I buy 100 blades at a time.



PUMP COVER: check the Olson gasket against the pump BODY not the cover. Make sure it covers the critical parts, and doesn't overlap inside, or block anything. There's no way around understanding what it does. If its WRONG, do not use it. It must be exact and correct. If not buy one from Galvin's or someone sensible, or cut your own. Olson's sells gasket paper -- the stuff I ordered came today, I bought .010 and .005 -- and I Measured it! I don't trust anyone! lol -- and wrote the measurement on the paper! Make yoru own from .010 paper, it will be fine. 

Use the same Xacto trick, but put your rough gasket cut out on the top of the pump body, not the cover. Do bolt holes first, as this locks the gasket into place, then the cavity, then the outside.


((The gasket I actually made, while I was talking to a friend on the phone, came out awful, so no more photos, but I have one anyway, I wasn't going to use it.))




Think it out -- study the purpose of each hole and part. Some require precision, some can be rough. Note how narrow the gasket is near the bolt holes! It's only 1/16" wide, and holds back the 60 psi critical engine oil, and needs to not leak. Just be careful, if you screw up, toss it, cut another. 

Your first will take an hour and maybe multiple tries; 2nd 30 minutes; with practice 10 minutes. It's a skill. You'll soon see gaskets will lose all their magic. I'll try to make some pics tomorrow of gasket cutting.



Originally posted by 1958 rambler super 1958 rambler super wrote:

If the builder put that gasket on (and he did, he put the new oil pump on when he was assembling the engine, so I didn't put the oil pump, head and intake gaskets or oil pan or timing cover gaskets on) , ...

That is a danger, yes. It may be that your builder did a dung job. It might be fine. I'm no engine builder, but I (1) know how to follow directions and (2) know to check the fucntion of each and every single thing I can see (KEY DETAIL). Do the oil holes int he block line up with the bearing shells? Do the holes in the cam bearings line up? Is the oil deflector and other nasty bits under the timing chain cover in the right order? Are the main gallery oil plugs in place? ... I hope they were diligent.


Originally posted by 1958 rambler super 1958 rambler super wrote:

You want me to take the pump off again and show you some detailed pics of it on "the bench" both outer and inner of it? Maybe clean up the Vaseline alittle?

That pump should be out? You have the wrong gaskets. There;s no hurrying or shortcuts. Hurrying and shortcuts always takes longer.




Edited by tomj - Aug/14/2021 at 11:43pm
1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto
1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5
http://www.ramblerLore.com

Back to Top
tomj View Drop Down
AMC Addicted
AMC Addicted
Avatar

Joined: Jan/27/2010
Location: earth
Status: Offline
Points: 7522
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tomj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug/14/2021 at 9:22pm
1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto
1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5
http://www.ramblerLore.com

Back to Top
tomj View Drop Down
AMC Addicted
AMC Addicted
Avatar

Joined: Jan/27/2010
Location: earth
Status: Offline
Points: 7522
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tomj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug/15/2021 at 1:58pm
Our moral lesson for today: How to tell Right from Wrong.







Same gasket and pump body in both pics of course. That is a used gasket, factory-original probably. And even in the Right, top, photo, you can see the gasket partially occludes the cast-in oil inlet passageway. In real terms it does no harm at all. Oil is drawn up from the pan through the hole in the bottom of the body, through the gears, etc. So that tiny bit of extra gasket means nothing. Even so, I might trim it, or not. 
1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto
1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5
http://www.ramblerLore.com

Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.03
Copyright ©2001-2019 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.141 seconds.
All content of this site Copyright © 2018 TheAMCForum unless otherwise noted, all rights reserved.
PROBLEMS LOGGING IN or REGISTERING:
If you have problems logging in or registering, then please contact a Moderator or