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engine died today....

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bigbad69 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bigbad69 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov/29/2021 at 12:03pm
Originally posted by PHAT69AMX PHAT69AMX wrote:

Brake Lights WORK with Ignition Key OFF and Keys not even in the ignition, do they not?
Parking Brake Warning Light & Headlight Warning Buzzer BOTH are powered by the same Brake Light circuit...
The brake lights and headlight buzzer are powered by full time 12V. The warning light is on switched power. The Owner Manual recommends setting the parking brake whenever the car is parked.  If the warning light was on full time power, it would be on all the time while the car was parked, thus depleting the battery.
69 Javelin SST BBO 390 T10
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bikerfox Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov/29/2021 at 12:57pm
Originally posted by PHAT69AMX PHAT69AMX wrote:

bikerfox - unaware on a 1970 model, but on a 1969 AMX all that was involved
was somewhat easily accessible from underneath the drivers side dash.
That is when a person's young and limber and can easily contort them self in there LOL
Familiar with all this as long ago I did an incognito in-dash "Shift Light" by commandeering
the optional tacked-on simple stand alone E-Brake Warning Light Harness and Bulb Holder,
disconnecting it from the E-Brake mechanism Ground Switch, & attaching it to an MSD RPM Switch.
An there it was, a hidden, stock, in-dash RPM Activated Shift Light... and a UniLite fired MSD 6 Box.
Car also had the optional Headlights on Warning Buzzer, which was still functional !
It all worked fine for awhile after initial install, then one evening acted up similar to your event.
That is when & how it had to be dug into and figured out, and found the "back feed" situation.
Just so everyone knows, not just blowin' smoke out of my... and makin' things up...  Peace

PHAT--yes, the '70 model is a beeatch!  Just curious--what was your "back feed" situation?
1969 Rebel SST (1970-1987)--SOLD
1968 AMX (2005-2011)--SOLD
1969 SC/Rambler (2011-2019)--SOLD
1970 Javelin (2019 to ?)--"Jane"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PHAT69AMX Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov/29/2021 at 2:25pm
bigbad69 - gotta agree and go along with it seems that would run down the battery, yes,
only reporting on what appears to be shown in the 1969 TSM Wiring Schematic, which have errors.
There were at least 3 versions of AMC Head Light Buzzers, the early one as in the schematic had only 2-wires.
Following versions had 3-wires and 4-wires, maybe changes were made due to that?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tomj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov/29/2021 at 4:11pm
OK -- just talked to Steve at length, we traced out wiring to to the relay, it's all correct. The issue is the signal/power source that turns the relay on ("pin 86") in his car is a bit convoluted, but eventually ends at a pair of AMC-factory-harness wires, both yellow, butt-spliced together and to the wire to pin 86.

Buck is correct, and I was wrong -- Steve's car needs the diode fix to stop the run-on. One of those yellow wires goes to the starter solenoid "I" terminal, fed by the pink resistance wire, and that's fine. The other yellow wire is the one to the alternator voltage regulator.

I personally haven't done/don't know about the diode fix, but y'all here know about it, so I'll beg off here. Does it go in the orange/no tracer wire between alt and regulator? 

Almost an aside, but WTF is ignition (coil +) power fed to the voltage regulator in the first place?! Is that "sense", that tells the alternator to operate? I thought that was done by the idiot light. It was on earlier cars, at least, and sometimes a resistor in parallel with that lamp to cover the case of a burned-out lamp (which killed charging on early cars, duh).


Why the parking brake light drops power to the coil is a mystery to me. Headlights don't do it. Weird.


1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto
1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5
http://www.sr-ix.com

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bigbad69 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov/29/2021 at 4:55pm
Originally posted by tomj tomj wrote:

Almost an aside, but WTF is ignition (coil +) power fed to the voltage regulator in the first place?! Is that "sense", that tells the alternator to operate? I thought that was done by the idiot light. It was on earlier cars, at least, and sometimes a resistor in parallel with that lamp to cover the case of a burned-out lamp (which killed charging on early cars, duh).
The yellow wire to the regulator is the power feed to the regulator. The orange wire is the sense. It is separate from the "idiot" light for just the reason you stated. I think it was in 68 or 69 model year that change was made. Bill D would know exactly when.

Coil power is fed from the ignition switch through the resistance wire to the solenoid (not the regulator) and on to the coil. The solenoid provides full 12V only when the key is in "start". Otherwise, power is stepped down through the resistance wire.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bikerfox Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov/29/2021 at 5:49pm
Originally posted by Bucks AMX Bucks AMX wrote:

I'm not using a 'cheap' relay, I'm actually using a Bosch relay and yes the diode was necessary at least in my instance. The orange (Alternator light) wire carries enough residual current coming from the alternator to keep the ignition energized. A diode took care of the issue. Both the relay (12V requirement) issue and the run on issue have been addressed by MSD. And yes the relay is wired exactly as MSD advises.

A HUGE thanks to Tom J., my buddy to the north, for spending time
with me, troubleshooting and verifying the circuits.

Bucks AMX--just wanted to verify you bought a 1A 100V diode.  Have
more room near the alt for the diode, rather than the harness.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PHAT69AMX Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov/29/2021 at 6:04pm
tomj - lmao....  it's a convoluted mess ain't it man, make a fella pull his hair out - lmao LOL

100V / 1A DIODE it says in the MSD 6 Box instructions

Of course it fails to specifically identify the Diode further back where it shows were to put it LOL


Edited by PHAT69AMX - Nov/29/2021 at 6:14pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bucks AMX Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov/30/2021 at 9:05am
Yes I used a 1A 100V diode.
1970 AMX 390 4spd Golden Lime
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PHAT69AMX Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov/30/2021 at 5:11pm
bikerfox - unsure exactly what the "back feed" actually was or what did it for sure.
Disconnecting the 1968 2-Wire Headlight Buzzer fixed the issue.
Still used the stand-alone E-Brake Light & Harness as a "hidden" in-dash Shift Light.
Ran MSD 6 Box, Delco type Distributor, UniLite Conversion, Stock Tachometer, Motorola Alternator.
Required both a Dual Mopar Ballast Resistor & a Single Ballast Resistor per MSD instructions
to make the stock tachometer work and to prevent engine run-on.  Used no Diode.
Use of UniLite results in MSD 6 being "White Wire Triggered", that makes a difference as to what works.

Further study of the AMC Schematics, some info in my previous post is incorrect.
Fuse Panel is rotated in all different orientations between in the car, in the Elec Chapter, & in the Schematic.
Had me dizzy Shocked  But the E-Brake & Buzzer ARE NOT HOT with the Ignition "OFF"
so THANK YOU to who it was that pointed that out.
If I can, will try and find & take the time & go back and edit - fix previous incorrect posts...

I would suggest you consider removing your Ignition Switch and Testing it per the TSM procedure,
but I reckon maybe that is no where near as easy to do in a 1970 as it is in a 1969 model.
If something gets whacko in the Ignition Switch internal contacts it can cause issues...
Maybe at least try spraying some WD-40 into it and working it in an attempt to clean it,
and / or remove or mitigate some or any contact surface oxidation being as it's 50 years old...

Peace


Edited by PHAT69AMX - Dec/01/2021 at 8:45am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bikerfox Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov/30/2021 at 10:30pm
Originally posted by PHAT69AMX PHAT69AMX wrote:

bikerfox - unsure exactly wha the "back feed" actually was or what did it for sure.
Disconnecting the 1968 2-Wire Headlight Buzzer fixed the issue.
Still used the stand-alone E-Brake Light & Harness as a "hidden" in-dash Shift Light.
Ran MSD 6 Box, Delco type Distributor, UniLite Conversion, Stock Tachometer, Motorola Alternator.
Required both a Dual Mopar Ballast Resistor & a Single Ballast Resistor per MSD instructions
to make the stock tachometer work and to prevent engine run-on.  Used no Diode.
Use of UniLite results in MSD 6 being "White Wire Triggered", that makes a difference as to what works.

Further study of the AMC Schematics, some info in my previous post is incorrect.
Fuse Panel is rotated in all different orientations between in the car, in the Elec Chapter, & in the Schematic.
Had me dizzy Shocked  But the E-Brake & Buzzer ARE NOT HOT with the Ignition "OFF"
so THANK YOU to who it was that pointed that out.
If I can, will try and find & take the time & go back and edit - fix previous incorrect posts...

I would suggest you consider removing your Ignition Switch and Testing it per the TSM procedure,
but I reckon maybe that is no where near as easy to do in a 1970 as it is in a 1969 model.
If something gets whacko in the Ignition Switch internal contacts it can cause issues...
Maybe at least try spraying some WD-40 into it and working it in an attempt to clean it,
and / or remove or mitigate some or any contact surface oxidation being as it's 50 years old...

Peace

Thanks for your thoughts, Phat.  The diode will be here tomorrow and I'm going to
give it a try, as it'll be simply clip-leaded into the line.  Easy peazy.....you read my
mind--next stop, the ignition switch "zone" (play on the TW show).  Already have a
new one and ready to try it out.  Yes, it seems like everything electrical is more diffi-
cult on a '70 than with a '68-'9, esp. when it comes to dash issues. I'll report back as
soon as the diode is clipped in.
1969 Rebel SST (1970-1987)--SOLD
1968 AMX (2005-2011)--SOLD
1969 SC/Rambler (2011-2019)--SOLD
1970 Javelin (2019 to ?)--"Jane"
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