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Coil over conversion advice |
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tomj 
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Joined: Jan/27/2010 Location: earth Status: Offline Points: 7539 |
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 Posted: Oct/13/2019 at 7:40pm |
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oh -- spring in the AMC position, just with a shock up inside it? if so, sorry, i misunderstood the plan, man. y'all have my apologies. but if the shock is up inside the spring, how can it be using the stock shock mounts? what advantage does putting the shock inside provide? since there's no change in geometry, there's no handling/ride difference from stock (other than spring rate and shock rate changes you might make). how's it better than just good OEM style replacement parts? from what i can see, the main reason for the CF system is that those offset spindles clearance for huge wheels and tires up front (though why you'd want huge tires up front is beyond me). it doesn't offer, say, adjustability. the shock does (you can buy bolt-in QA1's) but with springs, you're left winding and cutting and shimming, like the stock system. looking at the AMC CF setup, it don't see how it handles even as good as AMCs stock setup. it appears to me that they essentially lowered the upper arm's outer pivot, switching to that spindle setup. to fix AMCs inherent understeer, you'd want to *raise* that ball joint, or lower the inner pivot (look up the "Shelby drop" fix for Mustangs; i did that to my '61 American and the result major). the CF stuff looks great. AMC's (and everything from that era) is bulky stamped rough sheet steel; not pretty. |
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1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto
1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5 http://www.ramblerLore.com |
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Brad
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Joined: Aug/07/2016 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 433 |
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Posted: Oct/14/2019 at 3:56am |
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I'm in the same boat as the original poster. I think he/we are looking at something like this....
I have QA1 double adjustables on my 70 Challenger and love them. It's not rocket science, just need to figure out some dimensions and message QA1 or maybe someone on here has been down this road and can save us some time with some part numbers? This should be useful for determining a starting point for spring rates.....
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Brad
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Posted: Oct/14/2019 at 4:35am |
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Another question.... with the CF set up, what spindle is this designed for? The stock AMC or Ford Pinto?
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farna
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Moderator Lost Dealership Project Joined: Jul/08/2007 Location: South Carolina Status: Offline Points: 19675 |
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Posted: Oct/14/2019 at 5:59am |
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The coilover conversion kits all have added strengthening plates/mounts that address that issue. Not just replacing the shock. All that I've seen mount the coilover in place of the spring. Theoretically the stock suspension is superior to something like a Mustang II... depending on the Mustang II type used. The cheaper aftermarket kits still use some original MII parts such as the lower control arm, the better ones (like Fatman) are improved with a real lower A arm rather than an arm and strut (like the 62+ AMC big car, 64+ small). The late AMC suspension is about on a par with the MII EXCEPT for the superior spring location. The high spring has a lot of advantages, as TomJ pointed out. BUT... there are some issues. It could use the "Shelby drop" to improve anti-dive characteristics for one, though the high spring helps with that. They were sprung rather softly for rougher roads of the day, so they can use a 10-12% spring rate increase. More and the ride starts to get a bit harsh, but I'd go 15% for a road racer/autocross car. Mopar_guy, I suspect you're comparing a well worn original suspension with the Fatman conversion. In that case the Fatman BETTER be much improved over the original! A fresh AMC suspension shouldn't be much different, especially if the springs are changed with a slightly stiffer rate. In the long run it's cheaper to rebuild the AMC suspension with slight improvements rather than swap it out, but there are many reasons to swap it out -- I'm not trying to invalidate your decision to do so! AMC parts aren't going to get cheaper or easier to find for one thing. I'm not real worried about having the rebuild mine 20-30 years or more from now though. Someone will have to, just not likely me! The next car I'm planning will likely have the front suspension swapped because it's a 62 American and I don't think I have all the front suspension parts in good enough condition to use or refurbish. I have a front suspension from my engine donor car that might work, will look into something else if it won't. Might end up gather original parts, we'll see... maybe. It's a long put-off project that might never get done... no point in kidding myself!
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Frank Swygert
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Mopar_guy
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Joined: Jun/07/2009 Location: Ohio Status: Offline Points: 4825 |
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Posted: Oct/14/2019 at 7:20pm |
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Here's two examples of what I'm talking about.   The main reasons for doing this as I said before to set ride height and have an adjustable shock. It's pretty much that simple! Most of the stock replacement stuff is iffy at best and you end up guessing what springs to buy and hope they work. I know this because I went thru 3 sets years ago trying to get the ride height I wanted and not have it ride like a truck. Once you have a good coilover setup, you won't go back.
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Brad
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Posted: Oct/14/2019 at 7:32pm |
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FYI.... I emailed CF and they replied quickly , they say with the coilover kit you use your stock AMC spindles/brakes etc.., with the IFS kit they supply Wilwood Pro Spindle which is a pinto styled spindle. Then you choose what brakes you want( wilwood has mulitple options) if you like Wilwood stuff...
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Mopar_guy
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Posted: Oct/14/2019 at 7:33pm |
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Nope! Not at all! My front end was completely rebuilt with a quick ratio box and a Larry Mitchell sway bar kit on it and my Fatman IFS out rides it and out handles it. It's like driving a new performance car. I'm back to using the original stock sway bar and the car corners more flatly than it did with the big bar. I did it because I needed to the steering box space for the a/c compressor on the Hemi and the strut rods were in the way of the exhaust. With those gone, that opened up everything.
I don't advocate doing this for everyone but it was something I had to do in order to get where I wanted to be but I wouldn't hesitate to do it again now that I've seen/felt the difference. |
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tomj
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Joined: Jan/27/2010 Location: earth Status: Offline Points: 7539 |
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Posted: Oct/14/2019 at 9:44pm |
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Mopar_guy -- got it. that looks pretty nice. i get it now.
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1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto
1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5 http://www.ramblerLore.com |
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Jmerican
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Joined: Mar/29/2016 Location: Seattle, Wa Status: Offline Points: 585 |
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Posted: Oct/15/2019 at 11:59am |
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I get it too. I’m a big fan of those parts. The shocks are night and day over the rubbish people are used to. And on the 17” subject... of course a good shock, and decent 17 will ride nice.
More track oriented tires, even street versions will ride Way way harder than your average tire. Same with any size. One just has to have compliance somewhere or you get the vibes. I don’t mind them, but some do.
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DMack
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Joined: Mar/27/2019 Location: California Status: Offline Points: 227 |
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Posted: Oct/15/2019 at 12:30pm |
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Thanks everyone for all of the input. What got me started on all of this was actually me contacting Mopar_guy because I wanted to see what suspension he had on his, because I think the ride height and stance are near perfect on his Javelin.
I understand everyone's concern regarding ride height and geometry. I have an 06' Mustang GT as well that I put lowering springs in. Had to put an adjustable pan hard bar and caster camber plates to compensate for the lower stance and to keep the toe and alignment correct. If I understand the AMC geometry (and I completely admit, I am a novice at best) .... By putting coil overs in and utilizing the factory (upper) spring pocket, I agree...you are affecting the geometry of the control arm positions, but if you can adjust alignment and toe in to keep the specs correct...where is the problem?..
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Mopar_guy wrote: