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Can this cause a misfiring engine?

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1958 rambler super View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 1958 rambler super Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/08/2023 at 5:47pm
If a misfire is left unfixed, it could cause damage to the engine over time, and this misfire has been occurring since the beginning, and nothing I've done has fixed it.... 

If it's the dist... That can't really be fixed, even tomj says so, he has detailed write up's about it, he did say..... 
"A pertronix module seems to lessen the effect of a worn distributor shaft bushing, and certainly slows or stops future wear, since there are no longer the spring-loaded points pressing sideways on the end of the shaft." 

So when I look at the dist I should consider this alternative he is describing... If that's the problem that's causing the misfire.... 

it does seem to shake the engine less as it heats up though, I took a video of it and its very small and doesn't shake the engine that much, some people watching that video might not even think it is a misfire, but standing right there you could see or hear it, and definitely with out question when the engine is first started up.

I didn't assemble the engine so I don't know if the right parts were used for the build, and the engine builder never gave me a detailed receipt... So I dknt know where things like the timing chain came from ect.... Isn't the timing chain a VERY hard to come by item????? 

I had the tsm that I brought him to use for the build, but his reception lady stopped me from giving it to him, saying they don't take them anymore because people in the past got upset if a page got torn or whatever... 


Edited by 1958 rambler super - May/08/2023 at 5:55pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 1958 rambler super Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/08/2023 at 8:53pm
So re-reading my old thread titled "pulled the spark plugs to find the mis" I can confirm the question of what lossness or wobble there is concerning the dist shaft, (according to my past observations it didn't wobble) and also verify there is two places the points open more as they ride the shaft.

I must seem like a guy that's all over the place. 

First with resolving the issue then it reappears later... maybe I just thought I fixed the misfire because the engine had warmed up when I was checking to see if I fixed it, because the misfire lessens with the engine warming up?
Maybe it's not a misfire and maybe it is the rusted up muffler stoping exhaust from leaving the engine which is causing the problem, maybe I should disconnect the muffler from the manifold and actually find out.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote farna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/09/2023 at 7:26am
You could very well have a cracked head causing the misfire. I hate to mention that, but I had that issue years ago. The only way to know for sure is to take the head off and have is magna-fluxed to check for cracks. I wouldn't do that at this point. I drove mine for 2-3 years with a "wandering mis" at idle. At higher speeds it wasn't detectable (to ear or felt driving), and seemed to get better as the car warmed up (but never totally went away). I wrote it off as distributor wear. I've recounted the story where I drove the car cross country and the cracks opened up the third day of driving -- kind of hard on it with long days and pulling a utility trailer.

So what I'd do if this were my car:
1) Install a Pertronix Ignitor II to make sure it's not a points/condensor or distributor lobe wear issue.
2) If that doesn't help use a block sealer product such as K&W Block Seal. I've used this before with good results, just make sure you follow directions! Won't clog radiator. I used it on a early 2000s Daewoo that my daughter had. Thought it had a cracked head, used the block seal while I tried to locate a used head. Ran it like that for 3-4 months, daily driven, no issues. I finally located a head, but my brother suggested we pull it and make sure that's the issue first -- wouldn't want to buy a head and discover it's the block or something. Turned out it was just a bad head gasket -- but the block seal sealed it pretty darned good! Won't hurt to run the sealer through it even if there isn't an issue.  You don't leave the sealer in -- have to drain and flush the cooling system before (won't work with anti-freeze in system) and after.

Frank Swygert
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 1958 rambler super Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/09/2023 at 7:23pm
Another seasoned mechanic classic car builder I've past these questions by said if it was a cam or timing chain or anything mechanical the misfire would be even, so that's good to hear!

Just starting to do the research on the pertronix 2 ignition dist conversion.... Hope it ain't too crazy... I'm tired of crazy...

Is this the one your talking about farna??

PERTRONIX 91568 IGNITOR® II AUTOLITE 6 CYL IGW SERIES ELECTRONIC IGNITION CONVERSION KIT



Edited by 1958 rambler super - May/09/2023 at 7:26pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scott Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/10/2023 at 5:51am
Put a vacuum gauge on the engine. Google "vacuum gauge diagnosis", study the chart & compare your readings.

Doing this will help to narrow down the cause of your miss.


Edited by scott - May/10/2023 at 4:24pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote farna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/10/2023 at 8:36am
If you have an Autolite distributor the 91568 might correct. If you have a Delco distributor it's not. The Pertronix site itself doesn't offer much help. Tom Jennings has extensive documentation on the 195.6 at his site, this page in particular: https://www.ramblerlore.com/AMC/195.6ohv/IGNITION/index.html.
He mentions using a Pertronix Ignitor II, 91162A. Pertronix actually says this doesn't fit a 1958 Rambler -- they are stating it should be a 91168LS. I don't know the difference between the 58 and 61-63 distributors. Maybe someone else can help -- I'll check the TSMs later and see if I get a chance. You might try contacting Tom from his site.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 1958 rambler super Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/10/2023 at 12:52pm
Ok, looking at his website again I see he has exp with the Ignitor one and two, and recommends the Ignitor two more because of special additions to the dwell, not too sure about what that completley means but oh well, I won't message him cus I don't know how busy he is ect and don't want to bug him, but I've downloaded the pdf instructions to look over... 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote farna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/10/2023 at 4:17pm
Don't worry too much about messaging him -- he'll answer if he has time, won't if he doesn't (or until he does). He's about like me in that respect, and always happy to help a fellow Rambler guy!

I don't fully understand dwell either, but it's the time the points stay closed ("dwell" in the closed position). This article explains it pretty good! In a nutshell,

"Taking it to extremes, excessive dwell means that the points close too soon after opening, cutting off the magnetic field collapse before it delivers all its energy. Too little dwell gives the magnetic flux insufficient time to build up to the maximum. Both conditions give a weak spark which gets even weaker as the engine RPM rises and produces misfiring at normal operating speeds."

https://www.liveabout.com/dwell-and-timing-explained-even-more-4059400

The Ignitor II electronically senses dwell and adjusts itself according to the needs of the engine.
Frank Swygert
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mstrcrftr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/10/2023 at 4:32pm
the best way to describe it is to think of it as a camshaft and lifter.

look at the distributor where the points contact the shaft.  you will see 8 flat spots (for a v8) and 8 sharp lobes.  as the distributor turns, the lobes open the points.  thats like the lifter opening the valve. 
the dwell is the setting as to, how close the points are to the shaft.  the closer you are,  the faster the points will open.  the farther away,  the points open later. 
the points setting determines the amount of power that will be sent to the coil.  (amount of spark you get)
the dwell setting determines when it will be sent. 
these adjustments should be done before timing the vehicle.



hope this helps.


Edited by mstrcrftr - May/10/2023 at 4:35pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 1958 rambler super Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/11/2023 at 7:49pm
Yeah it does, kind of, I thought the points closing is when the coils built up electricity gets sent to the distributor? I'll read the article, that's a good idea.
As for messaging tomj, I've read his rambler lore page a coue times and it seems he is not saying use on or the other but both can be used, and he has exp using the Ignitor 2, but I think what he says....

"The Pertronix module requires switched 12V to operate. Luckily, 195.6 engines don't use a ballast resistor for the stock coil's "+" lead, so you can use that."

That may be accurate according to the wiring for the american car, not too sure, haven't looked, but for the rambler super, my car, there is a ballast resistor involved in the wiring, so that would have to be bypassed.
If I am using the Ignitor 2.
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