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66 Classic232 intake change?

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bbrooks2 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bbrooks2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: 66 Classic232 intake change?
    Posted: Jul/08/2015 at 5:44pm

66 Classic stock 2bbl 232, 3 speed OD with 45000 miles.

Well my head gasket started leaking last week so I have some questions.

This is a great running 232 2bbl and I more than pleased with this motor as it is. I think a perfect scenario would be to leave the manifolds on, pull the head and set it all back down on a new gasket but I don't think it will be that easy. I know how much it all weighs!

 
I have a like new Clifford 4bbl intake and the stock 2bbl is starting to leak out of the rod that runs through the center “butter fly” so I don’t think a rebuild will help it. I think now would be the time to change over I guess.
 
Is it worth it to send a low mile head to the shop for rebuild if everything sounds good? Could I just check for warp as the tsm directs and use copper gasket sealer?

My goals are;

1)    Fuel efficiency. Have not figured it but think I’m getting 20-25 mpg now.

2)    Low maintenance. Set it and forget it. I would rather drive it than work on the car.

I can get an Eldelbrock 500 Thunder manual choke for 300 and the 390 Holly for 475 at Oreille’s. Is the Holly worth 175 more?

 

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66 Classic 770
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote warweapon762 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul/09/2015 at 12:21am
The Holley would be a much better fit for your 232. But you could probably get the Eddy to work too provided you have a good cam that will utilize its potential. There will definitely be some re-jetting involved and if you have a stock cam you may have to tune around its limitations.

You will hear Carter 400 cfm from some people on this board too.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote uncljohn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul/09/2015 at 2:11am
A simple formula that also is valid formula to identify a workable sized carburetor for an engine is as follows:
Engine size (CID) x maximum RPM / 3456 = CFM
Engine size = 232 cu inches
Maximum RPM is a gut call on your part, but 5000 rpm is a reasonable number to use assuming a "Red Line" tachometer reading
which comes out like this
(232 X 5000)/3456 =337 CFM

There are other variations of this formula including an assumed engine efficiency and some online fill in the blank forms, but this is simple and also workable.

And what it says is that in general a 500 CFM carburetor is a bit on the big size.
That means that means the 390 Holly is better suited for your application.
That makes it worth the extra money.
You want an electric choke, not a manual one.
So if your choice is the 500 CFM Edelbrock AFB or the 390 CFM Holley than the Holley would be a better choice.
However, I am one of those people who prefer and AFB on small engines and if you can find one, a 400 CFM Carter AFB is the one I would choose.
That said, you have other considerations to take into account.
By using an aftermarket intake manifold it may be to your advantage to also use a different exhaust manifold.

There are a couple of reasons to do so, one is to remove the exhaust manifold heat off of the intake. There are pluses and minuses to doing that, but aluminum intakes can really be over heated by exhaust heat making it difficult to get a proper tune when the engine is hot. That is why headers or something like a header is used when making modifications.
You have true dual headers that can be purchased. The are not really very inexpensive and also require the cost of running a dual exhaust.
And your smaller engine does not really need a dual exhaust system no matter how nice they look, a good single exhaust system works well. And that can be obtained by using a Jeep type single exhaust tube header that not only works well and removes exhaust heat from the manifold but will bolt up to the your current single exhaust system requiring no further expense, but you can use some form of a quality performance muffler now.
I did that with a 258, I purchased a used tube type exhaust manifold from a Jeep junk yard and bolted it to the engine and the exhaust system and then used a 16 inch glass pack and a High Flow Catalytic converter. (The engine had an air pump and needed to pass smog that way).
Or another option is to use a middle 80's or newer Eagle exhaust manifold or maybe a Jeep one, it fits and works and removes the heat from the intake.
If you do that the engine will look something like this:





This is a 1974 232 using a Carter 400 CFM AFB.
You may also have to convert your accelerator pedal to use a cable, which can be done. Speedway Catalog carries parts to be able to do this with in many cases.
The intake in this case is an early application Offenhauser that was actually designed to be used on a pre 1970 AMC engine. The exhaust manifold is from an Eagle.
It may take a bit longer for the engine to warm up and run smooth once started this way, but it will eliminate the poor operation that comes from running a carburetor too hot. And a hobby car is rarely driven in the winter. At least I rarely drive mine in the winter. Any, I've build a couple of AMC I-6's and found them to be a lot of fun to own.

Edited by uncljohn - Jul/09/2015 at 2:16am
70 390 5spd Donohue
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74 232 I-6, 4bbl, 270HL Isky Cam
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KermitDRambler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul/09/2015 at 6:58am
Worn throttle shafts can be fixed. You'll need to have bushings made for the carb base and possibly the throttle shafts machined. This would be way less expensive (and much easier since you don't have to come up with a cable controlled throttle) than switching to a 4bbl. If you decide to go this route, follow these instructions for re-installing the manifolds: http://www.mattsoldcars.com/RestoreAmerican/loose_intake.shtml.

Matt
1967 American wagon
http://www.mattsoldcars.com
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote farna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul/10/2015 at 7:50am
The Clifford will run okay with a pretty stock engine, I've run one, but he Offy dual port is a much better street intake and produces a bit better low and mid range power. Not sure it's going to be enough to make a big noticeable difference though (will need a stopwatch or keep mileage records... I'm certain the Offy DP will deliver a little better mileage). Since you already have the Clifford I'd use it, but if someone is looking to purchase an intake for a street six I'd spend a little extra on the Offy DP. The Clifford was really made for racing. It's sort of the Torker of the six world. And yes, Torkers have been run successfully on the street by many.

You have other options with the Clifford.  It uses and adapter plate to mount a two or four barrel carb. You can use a readily available 2 to 4 adapter and run an Autolite 2100 carb around 300-350 cfm. The old WCD only flows around 200 cfm, so you will see some gain.

I'm with John -- a carb sized for what you want (power increase while maintaining reasonable economy) will be way better than spending less on one that will be harder to tune for your needs, and may not deliver. The 400 Carter or 390 Holley is the way to go. I ran a 390 on a 258 in a Jeep (with Clifford intake) and it was a good setup delivering good fuel economy for the size and type vehicle. It got 22-23 mpg on the highway as long as I stayed under 65, and averages 19-20 (four speed T-176 manual with 2.73 gears.... yes, 2.73! Had to slip clutch a bit taking off, but 4th gear was almost like OD). 
Frank Swygert
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bbrooks2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul/21/2021 at 2:02pm
Well it wasn't the head gasket but one of the three sand drain plugs "that we don't call freeze plugs" in the head behind the manifolds. I have to drill and tap the front stud and then everything will be ready to bolt back on but I have some questions.

The 4 bolts holding the two manifolds together are very rusty I'm sure they will break. What chance do I have of leaving them together and using the two gaskets and just bolting them to the head?

As they are now, there is only a few thousandths variation across all 12 ports. Could I just use the metal gasket with a skim coating of high temp silicone around the intake ports?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FSJunkie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul/22/2021 at 2:50am
Keeping that engine the way AMC built it is your cheapest, easiest, most reliable, and most fuel efficient option.

Now wait a second. This is important.

AMC did not use an exhaust manifold gasket originally. The manifold was flat, the head was flat, and they sealed when they were bolted together. They sealed better than any gasket ever could or will. If there wasn't any gasket under your manifold when you removed it, you may bolt it back to the cylinder head without a gasket again, using just a thin layer of high temperature sealant such as Copper Coat as insurance. Follow the torque spec and sequence in the service manual. 

There is no reason to loosen, tighten, or otherwise mess with the four nuts and studs that hold the intake and exhaust manifolds together so long as the gasket between the manifolds is still sealing alright...especially if they look very rusty and likely to shear off. Leave them alone if that gasket is sealing. 

How are the studs for the pipe flange? They are ok to reuse so long as they are in good condition with undamaged threads. Just run a thread chaser over them and they'll be good to go. I recommend using new brass nuts on them though. Most auto parts stores sell brass nuts specifically for exhaust studs. They won't work loose as easily or seize up. If your studs are shot, I'd upgrade them to stainless steel if possible. 

The exhaust donuts gaskets that are a grayish silvery material last a lot better than the blue ones. One high speed run will burn the blue ones out. 

How is the heat riser damper in the exhaust manifold? Is anything bent, corroded, missing, broken, or binding? 

How is the choke heat tube in the center exhaust manifold port? That thing is ungodly hard to replace with the manifold installed on the engine. Just make sure it's intact and doesn't have any holes along it's length that would allow exhaust to enter the inside of the tube.

This would be a great time to media blast and paint...
'66 Marlin: 327/T10/3.54
'72 Wagoneer: 360/TH400/3.31
'73 Ambassador Brougham: 360/TF727/3.15
'77 Hornet: 232/TF904/2.73
'82 Concord D/L: 258/TF998/2.35
'84 Eagle Limited: 258/TF998/2.35
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bigbad69 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul/22/2021 at 10:22am
Originally posted by FSJunkie FSJunkie wrote:

AMC did not use an exhaust manifold gasket originally. The manifold was flat, the head was flat, and they sealed when they were bolted together. They sealed better than any gasket ever could or will. If there wasn't any gasket under your manifold when you removed it, you may bolt it back to the cylinder head without a gasket again, using just a thin layer of high temperature sealant such as Copper Coat as insurance. Follow the torque spec and sequence in the service manual.
AMC wasn't the only manufacturer who didn't use exhaust gaskets. Gaskets cost money and time to install.

You're right that the surfaces are true at the factory, but the parts have never been heat cycled. X number of years later, and many many heat cycles, you can't guarantee the surfaces will stay true if you remove the manifold, especially the long I6 one. You could machine the surfaces but not all shops have the skills to get an exhaust manifold flat enough to perfectly seal. That's why gasket kits come with exhaust gaskets. It's the easier way to guarantee a seal. However, using a gasket once (with heat cycle) is probably enough to warp the manifold so that going gasketless is no longer an option without machining.

Certainly there are people who have re-installed the manifold without a gasket and it sealed. They were lucky. If you want to take the risk and try it, go for it, but you may end up re & re'ing  the manifold. Shops who don't want the engine to come back for exhaust leaks will use gaskets.
69 Javelin SST BBO 390 T10
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote First_Gear Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul/22/2021 at 2:12pm
May I ask what transmission you have? I have the factory two bbl and the factory intake and twist linkage but decided to go with the 1bbl because I was afraid of blowing up the crappy t96 Trans. Did amc offer a two bbl with the t96? How do you like the od with the two bbl? Can you kick it out of od easily? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote farna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul/23/2021 at 7:24am
AMC offered a Carter WCD two barrel with the 196. You won't blow the trans with the 10 more ponies. Kicks out of OD easy, as long as the wiring is correct and functioning.

The T-96 is fine behind any stock 196 configuration, even with a bit better cam. Honestly, I don't think you can easily build a 196 that would destroy a T-96 trans. I had a ~170hp 196 -- about all you can do with it without extensive (and expensive!) work.

The main issue with the T-96 behind an appropriate engine is NOT down-shifting into first gear unless at (or very near... 5 mph or less) a complete stop. That and not speed shifting between 2nd and 3rd. Shift "normally" and you'll never have a problem with a the 196/T-96 combo.

I also ran a ~250hp 4.6L stroker in front of a T-96 for about 18 months. Now THAT will destroy a T-96!! The T-96 actually held up fairly well, but the synchro only lasted about 100 miles even with babying the car. When I took it out about 15K miles later (I was getting nervous...) it looked like a typical 90-100K T-96 inside.
Frank Swygert
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