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327 Question: Will heads support 300 HP?

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Trader View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Trader Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/18/2022 at 2:44pm
Wasn't pushing hard Ken, 9.3:1 SCR and 8.5:1 DCR with the cam set up for the intake charge. Intake opening at -2 BTDC should virtually eliminate any detonation issues and the vacuum would be high to also increase the cylinder charge.
This should be a pump gas friendly setup.
My impression is the engine design is different enough from a Gen2/Gen3, that the approach should be different. Let the higher exhaust pressure do the work of removing gasses through the head. A little EGR effect will also not hurt as it also reduces detonation issues.
Please correct my train of thought were you believe necessary. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Buzzman72 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/18/2022 at 4:02pm
Originally posted by gtoman_us gtoman_us wrote:

I will need a few days when back home to try and locate.  He sent them via email and since it was 9-10 years ago, now I can’t locate the email exchanges.
He include starter PN, Torque converter data, speedometer hook up.

I appreciate your efforts!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Buzzman72 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/18/2022 at 4:30pm
Trader and Ken, I appreciate all the information you've placed out here for me.

Here's the deal: My granddad had a '57 Rebel, but he parted with it before I was old enough to drive. I have a chance to get my hands on one, and I'd like to be able to make it perform at least as well as the original did with the gas available then, but on today's gas. My ultimate goal, should I get this project off the ground, is to cruise in it, perhaps show it at the NSRA Nationals, and ultimately leave it to my grandson [unlike my own grandfather].

The stock 9.7:1 compression of the '57 is probably going to be a big stumbling point. But I want to do better than the 8.5:1 static compression ratio of the non-Rebel, as that was one of the things that set the '57 Rebel apart. Maybe thicker head gaskets? Depends on what I can find. [As an early AMC fan, I'd be "Packard-izing" the 327...kinda rubs me the wrong way, but it might be my best option.]

Maybe if the stock solid lifter camshaft isn't too worn, I might find someone who could measure the lobes and help me duplicate it. As I may have said in one of my other posts, I'm considering hunting a later 327 block for the convenience of the full-flow spin-on oil filter. I might be able to use the front engine mount, and then fab up some "elephant ears" to mount a later automatic, such as the 200-4R.

The old "Flash-a-way" Hydramatic was a dinosaur when i owned my own '57 Rambler 250 back in 1970-72, so I'm betting losing it would save me a considerable weight penalty over the 200-4R. But that all hinges on being able to come up with the specs for the adapter. Without being able to go to the OD automatic, the value of doing the project drops considerably. YES, it would be a "resto-mod" rather than a restoration. But I also look at what happens if i break down in East Bumfuzzle, so that's another of the "whys" of changing the rear end, the transmission, and a to-be-determined front suspension upgrade.

So now you know where I want to go with this project. I want to build this in the spirit of the original '57 Rebel and make it something of a sleeper. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Trader Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/18/2022 at 5:25pm
Working on just the engine side, the camshaft and compression is the issue.
For the cam, there is not enough material from what I've read, could be wrong, to bleed off some compression. There is also the perceived exhaust restriction. The engine did work well so for todays fuel, to avoid detonation/pre-ignition, thoughts are to reduce the possibility to almost none. Hence the late intake close.
This sets up other benefits on the other end by using exhaust pressure to overcome any exhaust restriction in the head. And leaving some exhaust gas in the cylinder to also reduce detonation issues.
Ken can set me straight there hopefully.
You SCR may need custom pistons. Need to get below 9.5 SCR for pump gas, 9.2:1 would be wonderful. Need a good QH opposite the spark plug. Extra gasket is not going to help cylinder flow or complete combustion.
Intake flow is an unknown to me, but if 200 CFM is there then 300 HP is certainly possible. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ken_Parkman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/18/2022 at 7:54pm
I don't have the answers and have not built a 327. Listen to SC397 and Rebel 327X as they have built and dynoed 327s. If Kevin says you can make 300 hp you can take that to the bank!

I can make some comments and theories on stuff I believe in. It gets me into trouble because some don't agree or believe. I've even had people tell me my car does not run! But some of my stuff does run decently.

On exhaust flow most of the mass flow is early in the cycle as the valve opens as initially density is high and the delta P is above critical, so you actually have choked sonic velocity. The small port will limit the mass flow as the velocity cannot get higher - it's sonic choked. And the siamese centre port means "normal" scavenging does not exist for 4 cylinders and does for the other 4. I truly dunno what happens, and have never been involved in any development on that.

On the dynamic compression theory I do not use or believe in. I remember way back when I was in the Engine Masters Challenge one of the early years and that year there was no compression rule, just a fuel rule. Lotsa people thought a big cam and big compression and you are good to go for pump gas. I listened to vicious horrific engine melting detonation way up into the higher rpm band and those engines did not score well, and I figure half of them had broken pistons. Those people did not consider October sea level air and what that does to cylinder pressure. To make power you need to develop cylinder pressure, and if you design your engine right it will do that regardless of the "DCR". There is nothing dynamic about the theory, because it is only applicable at cranking - not a running engine.

I prefer working from the basic static ratio, then factoring from there. And have always found a properly matched combo for the fuel works far better than intentionally tuning the engine wrong to run a particular compression ratio.

BTW my engine did pretty good in the EMC. I had less compression than a lot at "only" 11.7. It rattled some at full load steady state 2500 rpm - horribly abusive on an engine - but cleared itself and made good torque and power. Finished 13 out of the 50 entrants. I had the 2nd best "off brand" engine, got beaten by Bill Trovato's Olds - did not see him coming. I also beat all the Mopars and it was particularly gratifying beating the Indy backed engine. Of course the real geniuses like Kasse had fairly high compression and managed to made it work and I know he considers the density altitude of the test site. I do know another guy moved the spark plugs in the chambers. No way we had the resources to compete with that.

There are a huge amount of factors, induction system, scavenging, combustion chamber, flame travel, spark plug location. To me intake closing is one of the bottom factors, and only applies if the engine is designed wrong and there is some other restriction like an induction system that is not right. As I said I think the only time it might be of value if you have a lot of data on a particular combo. But definitely it does not transfer across combos and engine styles. That's one thing I worry about Trader.

I can also say the 327 is a 50's design, and things have progressed a long way from there in terms of combustion chamber design. I love the 327 and the project - weird is good. But don't treat it like a newer engine. The spark plug is way over in the corner which makes the flame front travel very long, which makes it more likely to have end gas detonation. And I can also say my dad busted a couple pistons in his 65 Marlin with the 327 trying to run regular grade fuel. It only gets hi test now.

So the recommendation would be don't push it to far on pump gas! 


Edited by Ken_Parkman - May/18/2022 at 8:16pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Buzzman72 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/18/2022 at 8:29pm
In the late '80s/early '90s, if I recall correctly, heart-shaped combustion chambers similar to what the 327 has were promoted as "high-swirl" chambers and touted as a "new and better" design. I wish i could see whether the 327 actually does promote swirl, and how that affects combustion.

I found this on a Ford discussion board: "Generally speaking, the heart-shaped combustion chamber serves two purposes. One, it makes for a closed combustion chamber which provides a larger quench area and limits the distance the flame has to travel to burn up all the fuel. Both these characteristics promote a faster burn. Second, the heart shape induces a swirl motion of the incoming fuel/air mixture which promotes thorough mixing of the two and likewise causes more of the fuel/air that enters the combustion chamber to be converted into power producing energy. All these characteristics make for optimal conditions for higher efficiency POTENTIAL. "

So that makes me believe the 327's combustion chamber may not be as bad as it's made out to be. 



Edited by Buzzman72 - May/18/2022 at 8:34pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SC397 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/18/2022 at 9:01pm
Buzzman, are you going to post the whole build on this thread or, start a fresh one?
Also, how many cc did th combustion camber measure out to be?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Trader Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/18/2022 at 9:02pm
Best get SC397 and Rebel 327X input. The 327 piston is a flat top which is a good thing. maybe best to get less SCR by taking the bottom corner out by the spark plug and making a better heart shape so the flame front does not have to travel the long route around that sharp edge by the exhaust valve.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Buzzman72 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/18/2022 at 9:05pm
Originally posted by SC397 SC397 wrote:

Buzzman, are you going to post the whole build on this thread or, start a fresh one?
Also, how many cc did th combustion camber measure out to be?

That wasn't my photo. It came from the XRV8 post on this forum.

If I get the project started, I'll post it here.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WesternRed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/18/2022 at 11:00pm
For the purpose of comparison, this is the Eddy head vs the factory 993 head, interesting to see how far the plug location is moved in the Eddy chamber, especially compared to the early head above.


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