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232 in '64 American |
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ramblinfsj
AMC Addicted Joined: Jul/07/2007 Location: Lubbock, Texas Status: Offline Points: 1611 |
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You really don't need a newer crossmember. I put a 232 in place of the 196 in my 65 American. With the 232 in the engine bay, the motor mount studs are about 3" forward of where the 196 mounts were. All I did was weld some plate to the crossmember out to the 232 motor mounts. It works great and didn't cost me anything. I already had the metal. I would get you a link to my build over on the AMC Heritage Forum but it looks like the site is having some problems. As far as the water pump goes, just order one for a '75 Jeep CJ-5.
Here's the passenger side mount set down on the extension I made.
And here's the driver side.
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1982 Jeep J-20
1965 Rambler American 220 1978 Jeep Cherokee w/401 1983 Jeep J-10 1979 Concord DL 2dr |
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farna
Supporter of TheAMCForum Moderator Lost Dealership Project Joined: Jul/08/2007 Location: South Carolina Status: Offline Points: 19611 |
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You can bolt the plates in also. Use 3/8" grade 8 fine thread bolts for the best holding power. The plates need to be at least 1/4" thick and can be threaded for fine thread bolts, making installation easier (bolt plates to mounts, lower engine in place, mark or drill the original holes in the crossmember from underneath, drill and tap, screw in!). I did the same with my 63 Classic that originally had a 196, but the engine seems to mount a bit differently. I had to raise the engine also -- used 11 gauge (1/8" thick) 2"x3" square tubing (two 4"-5" lengths) between 70s six cylinder mounts and the 196 crossmember to install a 4.0L. 1/8" is the thinnest that can be drilled and tapped, MUST be fine threads though.
You may not need the change the waterpump on the 4.0L. The serpentine belts setup is VERY short. The problem will be in the cooling fan. You should be able to switch over to the old style short water pump and V-belts and go that way, but I'd investigate an electric slim pusher cooling fan. Pushers aren't as efficient as pullers, but there won't be room for a puller between the motor and radiator. Might not be room for a pusher (or pair) between the grille and radiator either though. The 4.0L might fit without swapping the radiator brackets side to side. If it will there should be room for fans in front of the radiator. You gain about 1.5" in the engine compartment by swapping the radiator brackets side to side, needed for the v-belt fan setup. Wrangler and Grand Cherokee 4.0L setups use a water pump mounted fan, but that will be way too long to fit in the 64-65 American. Edited by farna - Aug/22/2010 at 4:59pm |
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Frank Swygert
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counsel62
AMC Apprentice Joined: Jul/09/2010 Location: Florida Status: Offline Points: 43 |
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Ur not kidding they modified the radiator supports!
I got a stock '65 engine crossmember and new motor mounts. Installed all (Thanks for the tips Andy Ray!), and the motor/trans set up looks awesome (1967 Pontiac GTO metallic green engine paint, Dupli-Color DE1616 - nearly identical to my seat upholstery)! The radiator - that's a horse of a different color!
Flipping the radiator core brackets is not the end of the matter. The brackets themselves require significant and careful modification/cut away at the bottom to allow the radiator to sit low enough versus the lower unibody horizontal framing - or that framing would need even more significant modification. Also, the sheet metal on both sides near the top ends (left and right) unibody horizontal framing/radiator support must be cut or bent away, or a bit of both, because the vertical "shafts" of the radiator brackets collide with that sheet metal - as the radiator was never intended to sit inside that space, but rather, rearward of it.
Even after all those mods (finished LATE last night), I'll need to drill 4 new holes in the mounting valances, because if I use the stock ones with integral nuts, the whole radiator sits both too high for the hood, and WAY to close to the engine (could not even get a fan belt between water pump center shaft nub and radiator core). Those holes will come a bit later - maybe last, even after hoses R on - to be sure of fit in THIS car.
Also learned I had to notch out an arc in the upper radiator unibody support for the radiator filler spout/cap assembly, or else it hit the support and held the radiator still too close to the water pump to fit in a fan belt. THEN that meant I had to remove the plastic wiring supports holding the harness to the upper radiator unibody support, lower the wires and zip-tie them (there's a series of holes already in that support that leant themselves to this) onto the bottom aspect of that support - because w/o doing that the whole length of those wires along the support would directly contact the radiator top tank - likely to melt them during operation. STILL I have to do something to shield them as they cross the vertical center support (back-side of the hood latch) because they continue to contact the radiator there. Dios Mio!
"Finally," I will have to either fab some sort of vertical U-Channeled sheet metal that runs from the bottom of the radiator brackets to the top of them, to fill the GAP THAT STILL EXISTS between the flipped radiator brackets and the side valances to which they're intended to mount, or just cut some sleeves/spacers for the bolts I ultimately use (which will hold it but not look so good, I think) - because even with all this effort, there's still about a 1/2 inch gap between the brackets and mounting valances - which I cannot eliminate without totally cutting and then re-shaping the upper and lower unibody radiator cross supports to enable me to move the radiator that 1/2 inch forward.
However, the plus side of this "tight" fit and remaining 1/2 inch gap, is that it looks like I'll be able to install 2 10" electric fans in front of the radiator because THERE IS NO WAY a fan can bolt to the pulley and do anything except destroy the radiator/itself (if I could even get the radiator in after bolting on the fan - which I seriously doubt)!
On top of all this - I still had to remove my water pump and cut a good 1/2 inch off the center shaft nub - which now JUST allows a fan belt thru the space between the pulley bolts (now the largest profile there) and the core.
Maybe I shoulda just bought a complete '65 radiator????????
If someone will tell me how to, I'll be happy to post pictures - and if not - I'll email some to whomever emails me a request for pics (counsel62@hotmail.com).
Thanks again for all Ur helpful info!! Steve
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Wrambler
AMC Addicted Joined: Jul/02/2007 Location: West Virginia Status: Offline Points: 4197 |
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Sounds like you have 90% of it done, no need to back up and start over!
I spaced the radiator forward in my 69 to allow space for an old GM X-body electric fan that uses the motor that looks like a heater blower motor. I also made a full shroud so the fan pulls air through the entire core. That won't help you though. This might, For spacers of any length I have used 1/2" emt conduit, metal and you just use a tubing cutter to cut it to length, plenty strong enough. If you are worried about the cut ends digging into anything just add fender washers at both ends. The alternative is to measure the gap, then see if you can get a piece of square tube that is that thickness. The square tube can be used to help fill the entire gap between the rad and core support. Unless you have radiator issues from age, you should not need to be too concerned about overheating. My car has a Blackstone rad, 2 core IIRC. It was new in about 1997-98 and came in a parts car I bought. With my 4.0L and that one X-body fan, I very, very seldom even turn the fan on! 90+% of the time there is so much space and air around the rad that it stays below 210*. Highway speeds rarely see it past 195*. I run a 180 * t-stat. |
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Wrambler
69 AMC Rambler 4.0L, 5 speed 2015 Grand Cherokee Limited 2019 Chrysler 300 |
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counsel62
AMC Apprentice Joined: Jul/09/2010 Location: Florida Status: Offline Points: 43 |
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Great suggestions - I like the square tube thought particularly. I'm in south Florida, where EVERYTHING runs hot - so I can't help but worry about needing a fan setup (sitting at a light or drawbridge for any length of time at all, causes all sorts of trouble).
I have an aluminum radiator in my 1948 International Harvester KB3 Pickup, which has a Chrysler 318 V8 and 904 trans (the same trans I have in the '64 Am Conv now becuz it was bolted to the running 232 and I got BOTH for $300.00!). The elec fan I have for that massive radiator only comes on after sitting for a long time or after shutting her off from a freeway drive.
Now, my 4 core non-alum radiator in my '57 Bel Air 2 Dr Sedan with a 350 and TH400, for which I currently run only a newer style flex fan with added shroud, gets pretty darned hot right outa the gate.
Hence, my worries, as this will be a simple stock '64 radiator.
The only car I have ever had luck with on staying cool down here no matter what, is my '66 Mustang hardtop, with a stock 200 6 cyl and aluminum radiator with a flex fan. That thing could sit in direct sun for hours and idle, never getting above 160!! Never saw anything else like it.
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Wrambler
AMC Addicted Joined: Jul/02/2007 Location: West Virginia Status: Offline Points: 4197 |
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well, I hope you have good cooling luck with the 64.
Like I said I have never had an issue with mine, though a typical HOT day for us is mid 90's we do get the heavy humidity, not quite as bad as down there, but bad enough! You will definitely need a electric pusher fan or two. I'd probably go with two, that way if one fails you may be able to limp home without cooking the engine. the need for a fan dissipates at about 35mph, never stop! One thing I do like about pusher fans is they are not subject to the incredible amount of heat the radiator is dumping out. Puller fans are and can literally be cooked to death. Off topic somewhat, my 04 WJ Grand Cherokee drives it's cooling fan with P/S fluid! It is really a sweet setup as it never howls like a conventional fan, yet the jeep never gets hot. Someday I want to look into how they drive it. It would be a great, quiet setup if a module could be designed to operate what I assume is an electronic valve to control fluid flow and fan speed. |
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Wrambler
69 AMC Rambler 4.0L, 5 speed 2015 Grand Cherokee Limited 2019 Chrysler 300 |
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KermitDRambler
AMC Addicted Joined: Jul/06/2007 Location: Cincinnati, OH Status: Offline Points: 2579 |
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Did you put the proper water pump on the engine? AMC used a short water pump (applications are 65 American with 232 and early 70's Jeep CJ-5) to allow some room for the fan. Also, I'm pretty sure the upper and lower core support crossmembers are different for 65 Americans with a 232 to allow more room for the radiator but it sounds like you have that handled.
Matt
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ihcdiamondreo
AMC Apprentice Joined: Sep/01/2010 Status: Offline Points: 96 |
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The radiator in a 1965 American with a 232 is a one year only part. It is a McCord #3177291. It has a two row core that is offset towards the front to gain an additional 1 inch of clearance for the fan. Flipping the mounting brackets on a 196 radiator will not give the clearance needed for a 232.
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Superrara
AMC Fan Joined: Jul/21/2021 Location: San Francisco Status: Offline Points: 9 |
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Where can somebody find & buy this McCord #3177291 radiator. I've been looking but no luck on finding one. Thanks
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farna
Supporter of TheAMCForum Moderator Lost Dealership Project Joined: Jul/08/2007 Location: South Carolina Status: Offline Points: 19611 |
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Flipping the brackets from side to side on a 196 radiator generally does work. I've done a couple that way. The standard two core radiator works anyway. A HD three core may not. You also need a 65 American 232 water pump and pulley, or a 71-80 Jeep CJ5 (CJ7 won't work) pump and pulley. Those are short.
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Frank Swygert
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