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195.6 with a "volcano butt" crank

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jamesheffington View Drop Down
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    Posted: Feb/10/2021 at 4:18pm
I guess I should have asked this question before I bought the engine.  I picked up a 60 195.6 with the volcano butt crankshaft.  Will I have any issues installing this engine into a 63 American with an automatic transmission? Will the bushing keep the torque converter from seating to the flexplate? Other than not being able to drop a manual transmission in, are there any issues with removing the volcano bushing? 

Thanks!


Edited by jamesheffington - Feb/10/2021 at 5:37pm
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tomj View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tomj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/11/2021 at 12:41am
The vagaries of volcano vs. flat butts are one of the Mysteries. I was told volcano is always used with manual (T96) trans but I absolutely had a 63 195.6 OHV with T96 and flat butt. I do not know if there was a taller bell to go with that, as I know that all T96 (and T14) is the same 7.125" (from memory...) input shaft.

You may simply have to try. Does the T.C. use the pilot hole to locate? I don't think so. I've never own an (intact) automatic 195.6 car.

There are adapters to hammer into flat butts to turn them into volcanos. I do not know whether than is a factory or aftermarket invention, or if the volcano is integral.  When I installed one I had to freeze it and it still took good hard wallops with a 4 lb hammer and block of wood rto seat it, so it will not be an easy remove.

Hopefully someone else here has specific experience with this.

1961 roadster american, 195.6 OHV, T5
1968 american, 199ci, T14
AMC pages: http://www.sr-ix.com/AMC/

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wittsend Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/15/2021 at 11:06am
I'm hesitant to add to this other than say this my experience. I bought a '63 American (Auto Trans) 26 years ago with a disassembled engine. I bought a '64 engine from Pick Your Part and it bolted in.  The engine that HAD been in the car was just going back to PYP for my core value. But since I wanted to retain as many parts as possible I put a block of wood through the crank bores and bolted on the flex plate and pulley. I stored that crank for 20 years. It got to the point that I never thought I'd use it and scrapped it. But, that crank stood on its tail all the time I had it. So, it couldn't have had a volcano. 

The only thing I can draw from that is that 63's (at least mine) and those going forward did not have a volcano. As TomJ mentioned there is a Volcano adapter. Thus it would be reasonable to think that if the older cars would need the adapter to use the newer engine..., then it is reasonable to believe that a volcano crank won't work in a newer engine. Also as TomJ mentioned there would have to be some form of compensation at the trans for the extended volcano. Was that in the bellhousing? Was that in a shorter convertor? All I can say is I'm glad I by happenstance got a '64 engine because for once in my life happenstance worked in my favor.

Anyway, this is not a definitive answer but it might help keep you from running down rabbit trails. I'd be curious to know if the volcano is cast in, if it is pressed in and in either case if it can be hacked off/machined off (if financially feasible) and worked around. I'd think you would need to keep a small portion to center the flex plate.


Edited by wittsend - Feb/15/2021 at 11:08am
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farna View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote farna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/16/2021 at 4:36pm
Correct. The last cars to have the "volcano butt" crank were 1962 models. The "volcano" is machined on the crank in most, but AMC did make an adapter that fit in the pilot hole of a flat butt cranks so a later model engine/crank could be used in an earlier car. You might get lucky and find a parting line at the base of the "volcano", maybe not.

The 63 American used a flat butt crank with the auto. So the flexplate not torque converter will bolt up. The only "good" news is that you can have the crank from the old motor (assuming you have it) machined (turned for oversize bearings if needed, maybe just polished with stock bearings... doubtful though) and it will bolt right into your 1960 engine. You just need a few gaskets...

You could also have a machine shop turn the "volcano" off. Just make sure the pilot hole is deep enough in the crank (they may have to bore that) because there is a "nose" in the center of the TC that goes in the pilot hole.


Edited by farna - Feb/16/2021 at 4:38pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tomj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/16/2021 at 10:02pm
To stir in some more mud to this cloudy pot, I had to use a volcano adapter on my 1963 flat-butt crank to use the ModernDriveLines T5 adapter. If anyone needs it all the dimensions are fairly exhaustively documented on my web page.

What Frank says certainly jibes with everything I've seen (fwiw).  But is it as simple as, pre-63 (62 and older) are volcano butts, always? If so, then what's the deal with transmissions and bells, as all evidence is that EVERY T96 has a 7.125" long input shaft with 3/4" pilot. 
1961 roadster american, 195.6 OHV, T5
1968 american, 199ci, T14
AMC pages: http://www.sr-ix.com/AMC/

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote farna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/17/2021 at 5:44am
I've only seen the "volcano" crank used with early autos, but I don't have a lot of experience with pre 61 models, and no autos prior to 63. The 61 and 62 Americans I've had in the past had manual trannys and flat cranks.
Frank Swygert
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote r4238id Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/19/2021 at 12:12am
I have a 61 American flat head with auto trans. Picked up a donor OHV to rebuild and ran into the crank question. The FH that came out of the vehicle had a flat crank but the donor had a volcano. The donor had come from a manual. After posting in this forum and input from Frank and Tom I made the decision to have the volcano machined off to match the crank I pulled out. I would post the cad drawing with measurements I gave to the machine shop but I am still too new to post pics. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tomj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/19/2021 at 9:44pm
Originally posted by r4238id r4238id wrote:

I have a 61 American flat head with auto trans. ... I made the decision to have the volcano machined off to match the crank I pulled out. 

NICE. Thanks for solid info! So the pilot bush hole is the same and all? 

So I take it the torque converter does not fit over the volcano.

1961 roadster american, 195.6 OHV, T5
1968 american, 199ci, T14
AMC pages: http://www.sr-ix.com/AMC/

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jamesheffington View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jamesheffington Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/20/2021 at 10:05am
From what I have been advised, the pilot stub does need to come off. Crank is in Sun Valley getting "De-butted".  Thank you for the advice.

Jim
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wittsend Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/20/2021 at 11:22am
I guess with the added cost you are, "losing you A$$ on that one." Unhappy (meaning both literally (the "volcano butt") and financially)
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