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Yea or Nea on aftermarket EFI

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232jav3sp View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 232jav3sp Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar/21/2019 at 8:20pm
Originally posted by Steve_P Steve_P wrote:

Carburetors were ditched nearly 40 yrs ago.  The early 80s was the end because they became too complex and expensive to meet emissions regs and EFI got cheaper.

When you drive take note how often you see a car that came with a carburetor.   Very rare today to see one and most I see are pickup trucks


Yes, you're right, the efi "take over" started nearly 40 years ago, but, the last carb'd production vehicles stopped nearly 30 years ago.  I want to say 1991/1992? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 73hornut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar/21/2019 at 8:55pm
Everyone is different, and technology advances, which is why it was created. The amc of today, would have computer controlled ignition and fuel injection, simply because it's superior, and now an old amc can also.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ghinmi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar/22/2019 at 7:33am
Originally posted by 232jav3sp 232jav3sp wrote:

Originally posted by Steve_P Steve_P wrote:

Carburetors were ditched nearly 40 yrs ago.  The early 80s was the end because they became too complex and expensive to meet emissions regs and EFI got cheaper.

When you drive take note how often you see a car that came with a carburetor.   Very rare today to see one and most I see are pickup trucks


Yes, you're right, the efi "take over" started nearly 40 years ago, but, the last carb'd production vehicles stopped nearly 30 years ago.  I want to say 1991/1992? 

Grand Wagoneer in 1991 was the last domestically produced automobile with a carburetor.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote White70JavelinSST Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar/22/2019 at 7:44am
Originally posted by 73hornut 73hornut wrote:

Everyone is different, and technology advances, which is why it was created. The amc of today, would have computer controlled ignition and fuel injection, simply because it's superior, and now an old amc can also.


And I thought I said it pretty well.

73hornut, that is a perfect statement.

And the crap about carburetors make more horsepower is bogus as well.

Top fuel and funny cars don't use carbs, sprint cars use fuel injection, Formula One and Indy cars aren't using carbs, almost all of the endurance racing sports cars are injected....it's pretty much restricted to drag racing and classes of road racing where injection isn't allowed. I'm not well versed on off road racing, but it only makes sense there as well. The fuel isn't bouncing around in the bowl. But most telling of all was early on during WW2 when Spits couldn't do aerobatic maneuvers without the engine cutting out due to a carb design which did get corrected. The inverted V12 German aircraft engines were injected and never saw any of those issues.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ken_Parkman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar/22/2019 at 8:26am
I want to make it clear I like EFI, but am reluctant to go to it on an old car.
The above points are all very good, and to each their own. There is no question EFI is a fundamentally better way of distributing fuel.
 
But an interesting thing is that all other things being equal any kind of conventional EFI system physically cannot make as much power as a carb in a point design. The carb has 2 physics advantages that cannot be denied. First is that the heat of vaporization in the intake tract from a carb results in several % improvement in VE. Port or direct EFI cannot do that. The second advantage is a pressure atomizing fuel injector at conventional pressures is really a poor atomizer and does not create a good burnable mixture. You have to rely on other parts of the induction and compression process to get there. A carbs emulsification circuit is a shockingly effective vaporization system as it add air prior to introduction to the air stream - and a fuel injector cannot do that with existing technology. I did see a Honda patent where they were trying to figure out how. Back to the above comment about old engineering being pretty smart guys.
 
Any performance application on a simple hp basis a carb makes more power. Pro Stock, Nascar, etc lost power when the rules dictated EFI, and another very interesting example is the EMC where EFI and carbs were allowed to compete more or less equal - EFI got trashed. The next EMC assigned severe restrictions to a carb to make EFI competitive until EFI was able to win.
 
Also to make it clear EFI opens up other possibilities in design and usually all other things are not equal. For example a carb cannot deal as well with G loads etc. And if you have unlimited money EFI can make up most of the power deficit. My F1 info is a number of years old, but to solve the heat of vaporization they moved the injectors outside the intake tract, and vaporization is improved with insane fuel pressures. Power adder applications the control of EFI is almost a requirement.
 
And I would not dream of giving up EFI in my daily driver - that is not point design.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mbwicz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar/22/2019 at 9:08am
There are some really good points here, both about remaining pure and true to the car as designed, and to incorporate new technology.

I think that for the people that have time and ambition to tune a carb, they can be very effective and make more hp (Ken has some great points above).

For the people that want to take a carb out of the box, bolt it on, and have it run 'pretty well', then EFI may be worthwhile.

Personally, I put a Holley Sniper setup on, after driving with a carb for several years. Its nice to see a nearly instant start (no dry cranking to get fuel into the carb), and good cold manners. My next project car will have another Sniper on it (unless the new Edelbrock setup is awesome).

Just another opinion.

Have fun,
Mike
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote purple72Gremlin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar/22/2019 at 11:20am
Originally posted by Ken_Parkman Ken_Parkman wrote:

I want to make it clear I like EFI, but am reluctant to go to it on an old car.
The above points are all very good, and to each their own. There is no question EFI is a fundamentally better way of distributing fuel.
 
But an interesting thing is that all other things being equal any kind of conventional EFI system physically cannot make as much power as a carb in a point design. The carb has 2 physics advantages that cannot be denied. First is that the heat of vaporization in the intake tract from a carb results in several % improvement in VE. Port or direct EFI cannot do that. The second advantage is a pressure atomizing fuel injector at conventional pressures is really a poor atomizer and does not create a good burnable mixture. You have to rely on other parts of the induction and compression process to get there. A carbs emulsification circuit is a shockingly effective vaporization system as it add air prior to introduction to the air stream - and a fuel injector cannot do that with existing technology. I did see a Honda patent where they were trying to figure out how. Back to the above comment about old engineering being pretty smart guys.
 
Any performance application on a simple hp basis a carb makes more power. Pro Stock, Nascar, etc lost power when the rules dictated EFI, and another very interesting example is the EMC where EFI and carbs were allowed to compete more or less equal - EFI got trashed. The next EMC assigned severe restrictions to a carb to make EFI competitive until EFI was able to win.
 
Also to make it clear EFI opens up other possibilities in design and usually all other things are not equal. For example a carb cannot deal as well with G loads etc. And if you have unlimited money EFI can make up most of the power deficit. My F1 info is a number of years old, but to solve the heat of vaporization they moved the injectors outside the intake tract, and vaporization is improved with insane fuel pressures. Power adder applications the control of EFI is almost a requirement.
 
And I would not dream of giving up EFI in my daily driver - that is not point design.
x2.  None of my AMCs have EFI. And they are not daily drivers either..... For a daily driver EFI is the way to go. Ive had Holleys, carters, edelbrock, Rochester.....and Ive had bad and good ones. Pretty much if I have a good one, Im happy regardless of what brand the carburator is.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote PHAT69AMX Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar/22/2019 at 2:51pm
And if I understand correctly, good ol' Points, Mechanical Fuel Pump, and Carburetor
will still continue to work just fine after and if an Electro Magnetic Pulse weapon is used !  LOL !
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sweatlock Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar/22/2019 at 5:23pm
I’m not sure about others, but I personally wouldn’t argue that carburetors are superior to modern EFI - of course they’re not. That’s why my wife drives a nice newer vehicle. 

I’m also not “afraid” of modern EFI. 

I just don’t like it on old cars. 

And yes, mechanical fuel injection has been around a very long time - diesels have always been fuel injected, although obviously mechanical way back when. If someone has an old time fuelie then that’s very cool. 

Which is a good point to keep in mind - there are many different levels of fuel injection, from mechanical to modern direct fuel injection and everything in-between. 

My daily driver for work is a ‘92 Firebird convertible w/ an LO3 305 TBI. That one it might be hard to argue is better than a carb, lol. 

Respect the carburetor, honor it, cherish it - EFI may have been around for 30 years, but carburetors were used for over 90 years before the advent of EFI. And some cars still use a carburetor to this day, which says a lot about the basic soundness of the design. 

Remember, a CVT is superior in almost every way compared to an old 3-speed auto tranny and even a 4-speed automatic such as a 700R4, but I wouldn’t put one of them in an old car either. 


Edited by sweatlock - Mar/22/2019 at 5:27pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JolleyGreenSST Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar/22/2019 at 6:06pm
Every car that used a CVT transmission has had nothing but problems afa I heard, even Toyota.
So not the best comparison but I get your point.
Imho, if your going to daily your old car, and the technology is out there to make it better for a minor investment, I'm all for fuel injection, overdrive transmissions, four wheel disc brakes and anything else that can be retrofitted to our cars. The only time I'm not okay with it, is when it's something rare or very valuable... then i say keep it stock. But if your going to modify something and spend $400-500 for an aftermarket carb, then why not spend the extra $500 and make it fuel injected... the HP/TQ between the two is usually within several numbers either way, its been compared many times. but you give up the quick starts, smooth acceleration, better fuel economy and simplicity of self tuning software.
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