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Willys Tornado Flow Data

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jpnjim View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jpnjim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar/18/2019 at 5:21am
Originally posted by scott scott wrote:

The 230 is the engine that uses the same lobe on the camshaft to work both the intake & exhaust valves, correct? Or am I thinking of a different engine?

Yep, thats the one
6 lobes for 12 valves.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote farna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar/18/2019 at 5:24am
That's it Scott! Hard to cut a performance cam for it, or I should say you're limited somewhat in cam profile. Can't change lobe centers or anything like that and I'm sure there are more limitations on lift and duration than a standard cam. The only reason I can think of for the single lobe is it put the valves directly across from each other, but why not an offset rocker arm instead? Probably cost considerations -- the offset rocker would have to be bulkier and cost more to produce. These were made as pedestrian engines (like most!), not high performance.

I knew (or rather have read about) there were issues with oil leaks on early engines, but they were only used a couple years in the civilian line. I've also read that mechanics and potential buyers just didn't like the "exotic" nature of the engine -- especially not in something that was considered a simple work truck. They wanted something easy and simple to maintain and fix and were familiar with, not something exotic looking they knew little about. Since they had the military contract and Kaiser Jeep didn't concentrate on civilian sales like AMC did, they made the quick fix of using the AMC six for the low sales volume.

Just the valve train changed, and it proved to be reliable -- in 69 the Argentines ran three a the Nurburgring 84 hour race and they preformed wonderfully --  completed 334 laps (the most of any car!) but officially finished 4th overall due to a couple penalties... one was running part of a lap without a (required) muffler, which came off due to an accident, IIRC. There is a detailed article somewhere, can't find it now. The Nurburgring was run with the FOUR MAIN BEARING block, the seven main didn't appear until the early 70s!



Edited by farna - Mar/18/2019 at 5:26am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ken_Parkman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar/18/2019 at 10:25am
I like it because it is simply so cool - whoda thunk Kaiser/Willys would have an OHC in 62? The first real production North American OHC - disregarding low production things like Crosley and Duesenberg?
 
BTW I too think the AMC 6 is a better engine; no arguments.
 
I traced the Tornado all the way back, and it seems it originated as a Graham engine in 1935. It is a little fuzzy who designed it, but the Graham guys say it was a Graham design that Continental manufactured the big parts. The also interesting thing is originally Graham made it a performance engine by supercharging it - why it had so many head bolts. Graham made the most supercharged cars until passed by Buick in the 90s. Continental seems to have taken it over the Graham 217.8 and turned it into the 226, which went back to Kaiser-Frazer which grew out of Graham. It did make it easy to supercharge the Kaiser 226 in the 50's - the engine already had a zillion head bolts. Also might explain why Kaiser had such freedom to use the base design for the Tornado.
 
Also cool the basic engine started in 1935, and went all the way till 1982 in Argentina.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dbltrbl Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar/18/2019 at 12:51pm
Well, almost AMC here too, im building 29 Nash Twin Ignition 6 cyl engine, had to install big valves on the head because seats were burned. Did some bowl porting there ofcourse. Bought some Packard pistons for it which are about .11 taller than stock ones, im hoping to see close to 100 hp on dyno.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scott Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar/18/2019 at 3:12pm
The early 60's Kaiser Jeep pickups had another innovation that was far ahead of its time.... 4 wheel drive independent front suspension, not sprung by coils or leafs, but torsion bars. It took Ford & Chevy until the late 1990's or early 2000's to come up with a similar setup. At one time I had a service manual for these trucks that had all the details on the suspension, but I think I sold it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mramc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar/18/2019 at 3:50pm
Graham- Paige used continental engines modified to Graham's specifications. Kaiser Frazer was just a continuation of Graham under the Kaiser Frazer name including using the same basic Graham modified Continental engines. Kaiser Frazer has the 230 Over head cam engine in 1951 as it was test in a 1951 Jade Dragon Kaiser that still exist today. The engine just never got used until 1962 in the Kaiser (Willys) Jeep. kaiser was going to use the 230 OHC engine in there cars but got knocked out of the car business before they could do it. They seem to be hoping to use the 230 OHC six in place of a V-8 but got knocked out of the car business before they could do it and it probably would not have worked for Kaiser as every one was hot for the V-8s in the early 1950s. Kaiser Frazer did a lot of cutting edge engine work. But they did also design a conventional over head valve head for the flat head 230 CID Continental derived engine too. Money was a reason these engines never saw much use and most not the light of day. The automobile industry  is capital intensive with a low return on a very big investment.

A lot people wrongly believe the generation one AMC V-8 (250/287/327) is the Kaiser engine and this is not really true. The Kaiser 288 V-8 was conceived to be an aluminum wet sleeve V-8 engine. Very cutting edge for the early 1950s. The 230 OHC conversion head for the 230 flat head because that is what it was , did eventually make a good car engine (  IN ARGENTINA) but as a truck engine typical of most OHC engines was low on low end engine torgue which what a truck needs even if it was good on top end horse power.  I've done a lot of research on the Kaiser engine program and it is very interesting. LRDaum  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jpnjim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar/18/2019 at 3:51pm
Originally posted by scott scott wrote:

The early 60's Kaiser Jeep pickups had another innovation that was far ahead of its time.... 4 wheel drive independent front suspension, not sprung by coils or leafs, but torsion bars. It took Ford & Chevy until the late 1990's or early 2000's to come up with a similar setup. At one time I had a service manual for these trucks that had all the details on the suspension, but I think I sold it.

When Jeep introduced the Liberty in 2002, Jeep held events all across the country,
I think it was called Jeep 101 (maybe?),
they had a little classroom time, a cone course where you got to drive a Jeep with the pitman arm flipped around (so turning the wheel left = Jeep turned right), and a bunch of other cool stuff.

And everyone at Jeep proudly proclaimed the Liberty was Jeeps first IFS 4x4 Jeep LOL

Ummm, nope, not unless you don't count the IFS 4X4 Waggy's from the 1960's.

All the "Jeep Teachers" looked at me like I made the whole story up ConfusedClap

Jeep had dozens of firsts, both before and after AMC took over,
 like full time 4wd in a pickup, automatic 4x4, etc etc.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jpnjim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar/18/2019 at 3:57pm
Originally posted by mramc mramc wrote:

 The 230 OHC conversion head for the 230 flat head because that is what it was , did eventually make a good car engine (  IN ARGENTINA) but as a truck engine typical of most OHC engines was low on low end engine torgue which what a truck needs even if it was good on top end horse power.  I've done a lot of research on the Kaiser engine program and it is very interesting. LRDaum  

Putting 5.89 gears in the Jeep M715's (and a granny first gear!) made up for some of the lacking bottom end, and let the engine wind up even at a crawling pace.Big smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tomj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar/19/2019 at 9:26pm
thanks ken, and larry, for the fascinating data.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jmerican Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar/19/2019 at 9:29pm
yes yes, this thread. I was fascinated with a 62 pickup that this old guy had in a field. It ran. And drove. And he was probably my age now. This was in the Late 80s. It was 230 and IFS equipped 4x4. And I’m working on Wagoneers to this day. 

Thanks Ken, I am glad for this nice beginning of what will be a journey on this OHC. 
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