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which 6 cyl is in my 64 american wagon?

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auag85201 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote auag85201 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec/31/2017 at 11:40pm
i got the old beast moving....everything i read online said the lever on the overdrive needed to be in the forward position to take it out of overdrive..i did that and it wouldnt move..just freewheel....so i moved it to the rear and its fine..i still need to figure out the electrical part of the overdrive....the switch on the accelerator was stuck so i took it apart ..cleaned and lubed the contacts and its working but someone in the past has liberated the relay for the overdrive..cut some wires too..has anyone ever wired a modern relay in?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MARTINSR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/01/2018 at 1:37am
Originally posted by auag85201 auag85201 wrote:

thanks for the replies...i just got the car..it has been sitting for years..i dont want to dump any money into it until i can get it running and make sure the motor is in good shape...i just need to scrounge up a cheap radiator to stick in it and get it running...its an arizona car so its pretty much rust free..looks like it has been painted once and its ready for paint again...lol

You have done the first proper step, you have "moved into the community" and came here. This car will seem as strange as a spaceship for a while, but as long as you have moved into the community it will soon become as clear to you as a P&J sandwich. The car is very basic, it's so crazy simple it's nuts.

I bought a 59 American in 2009 without an engine in it with a parts car. It's a flathead, with the a three speed on the column. I knew NOTHING absolutely NOTHING about these cars. I didn't know what years were similar, I didn't know a thing about it.  I moved into the community, bought manuals for it, and it very quickly became an old friend. 

I found parts on ebay and supply places like Galvin's AMC parts. http://www.ramblerparts.com/

I have been driving my Rambler every single day, EVERY-SINGLE-DAY for the past 6 years. It's parked out on the street in front of my house, it's my daily driver. To show you how easy it is once you move into the community, the clutch linkage fell apart one day on the way home from work. On the way home in the tow truck I called Galvin's because I had saved the number to my phone and had the part coming to my home before I even got home with the car on the tow truck! 

It's easier than you can imagine once you move into the community. Welcome, these cars are so cool, they put smiles on peoples faces, I enjoy driving "Marge" so much.

Brian
1959 Rambler American daily driver. And I mean EVERY SINGLE day.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote farna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/02/2018 at 10:24am
You can technically run the OD without any of the old relays and such, but do so with caution!
There was no OD relay used in the 64 American, though earlier models did use one. The 64 used a two wire governor, which replaced the relay function. All you have is the kick-down switch, governor, and solenoid. The kick-down switch should mount on a bracket on the intake manifold with a "paddle" lever on the throttle linkage activating it. Should be a four terminal switch with a "ratchet" action -- it will click when pushed in and connect the "bottom" two terminals (bottom being opposite of push button) then immediately "pop" back out, reconnecting the top terminals. It will reset when the throttle is closed and push button comes all the way back up. If this doesn't work as described you need a new one -- or can duplicate the action with a couple Bosch relays and a momentary switch. The $46.95 repro switch is the easiest way to go, and takes less room/wiring.

For starters, to get the OD operating without any of the wiring....

1. Run a wire from the battery to a toggle switch under the dash, then to the OD solenoid. You want to connect to the "4" terminal on the solenoid. I'd run a 20A in-line fuse between battery and switch.... might need a 30A, but I'd try a 20 first. If you need more than 30 the solenoid is bad. 

Original wiring would have an orange wire with white tracer on the "4" terminal. The other terminal (marked "6") would have a blue wire with tracer running to the kick-down switch then to the coil. This is just a ground connection. The "4" terminal originally connected to the governor, which connected it to the kick-down switch, from the switch toe +12V. I'm going off a factory TSM wiring diagram.

2. Flip the switch on and the solenoid will activate, flip it off and it will deactivate. Pretty simple... but not quite!  You can effectively put it in OD in any gear like this. Simply let off the gas, flip the switch, and go. To drop OUT of OD you MUST use the clutch!! The solenoid will drop out if you just let off the gas, but this puts a strain on the planetary gear shafts, which are small. So to drop out of OD push the clutch in THEN flip the switch off, then let clutch out. If you don't use the clutch everything will be fine for a while, but the OD unit will eventually break.

I did this way back when I was around 18 to my first OD car. OD lasted for about a month, then it just went "BOOM" under the floor one day. One of the planetary shafts gave out right after I shifted into OD. It's a bit scary when it happens unexpectedly, but nothing comes apart. A planetray shaft breaks and the gear jams inside the big drum gear. It acts like the OD is locked out, because everything is jammed together. At least you aren't stranded, but the OD unit has to be rebuilt.

There is no point in using OD in anything but third gear. I "split shifted" a few times, but the ratio of 2+OD is so close to 3rd (and 1+OD so close to 2nd) that there is really no point. The Twin-Stick transmission had a wide ratio between 2nd and 3rd so it could be split-shifted (OD used with 2nd) between 2nd and 3rd gears, giving five forward ratios.

You can get replacement electric parts from here:
http://www.vintageautogarage.com/Parts-Borg-Warner-Over-Drive-Parts-s/2818.htm?gclid=CjwKCAiA-KzSBRAnEiwAkmQ152b-dc7cMWnQjqe2eB08YJRTejqiFrBNSGXmGQrXZFfTgMBKZ5Rz9RoC9TMQAvD_BwE

Wiring diagram is in the TSM, but also here:
http://www.oldcarmanualproject.com/tOCMP/wiring/5765wiring%20diagrams/Rambler/MWire5765-371.jpg

All the OD wiring is in the lower right corner.

Frank Swygert
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tomj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/03/2018 at 12:10am
Originally posted by farna farna wrote:

d, 
You can get replacement electric parts from here:
http://www.vintageautogarage.com/Parts-Borg-Warner-Over-Drive-Parts-s/2818.htm?gclid=CjwKCAiA-KzSBRAnEiwAkmQ152b-dc7cMWnQjqe2eB08YJRTejqiFrBNSGXmGQrXZFfTgMBKZ5Rz9RoC9TMQAvD_BwE


WOW those solenoids and relays are expensive!!! is that common? 

i guess i won't be scrapping my small pile of them. funny, as i've been wanting to move my T96 stuff but no one ever wants to come get or pay for even just shipping. i should though consider cleaning up the solenoids and relays (all used, but working). i gave a whole box of R10 stuff to John Elle, he's the only one who showed any interest.

1961 roadster american
195.6 OHV, modded
T5z, 3.42:1 mustang axle
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote farna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/03/2018 at 6:18am
The expensive ones are new -- can't be much call for something like that any more! I didn't look for other sources, so there may be a less expensive option -- other than having a solenoid rebuilt. I had one solenoid that would work flawlessly on the bench, but wasn't strong enough to push the plunger in when installed. That was irritating!

Here's something to remember, and help with terminal ID. At least the seal is only $10:

"Solenoid wiring terminals with the solenoid in hand and the shaft facing out in front of you, the right hand terminal is number four and connects to the relay. The left hand terminal connects to the kick down switch. A small amount of solenoids had a third wire that was a ground if yours is one of those check your shop manual and it will confirm where the third wire goes. Most solenoids had screw in terminals, a few had internal connections with wires coming out of the solenoid. Wiring connections for both are the same.

When changing the solenoid we recommend always changing the seal in the transmission. This will prevent oil from entering into your new solenoid.
There is a seal in the solenoid itself that can;t be changed in the field. The seal that you can change is in the transmission where the shaft goes through. "

Frank Swygert
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jhowes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/13/2018 at 9:31am
You have a nice car,  congratulations.  When starting an engine that has sat for a long time, I follow the following procedure.
1.  Drain the oil and run your finger or some other thing liker a swab up into the drain hole to determine if there is any sludge in the bottom of the pan.  If there is it may mean you have to drop the pan and clean things out.  Not everyone in the past used detergent oil and the non detergent stuff will cause sludge that the filter, If seldom changed, will not have removed. 
2.  Drain and change all other fluids.
3.  Plug the lower engine water return hole and fill the block with :Evapo Rust" which can be bought in concentrated form at the local Farm Store under the name "Rust 911".  Save it when you drain it after a day or so, it is reusable.  You can l;eave it in the block for weeks,  no harm done and it cleans things out for good cooling.  
4.  I recommend new hoses and a good look at  the electrical components.  Test the generator (or alternator), Starter, Points, Plugs, etc.  Might as well start with the wear items in good shape.

I defer to the previous post about gaskets etc.  They know much more than I do.  My comments are general for any engine.  Jack
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MARTINSR Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/13/2018 at 8:06pm
Originally posted by farna farna wrote:

The expensive ones are new -- can't be much call for something like that any more! I didn't look for other sources, so there may be a less expensive option -- other than having a solenoid rebuilt. I had one solenoid that would work flawlessly on the bench, but wasn't strong enough to push the plunger in when installed. That was irritating!

Here's something to remember, and help with terminal ID. At least the seal is only $10:

"Solenoid wiring terminals with the solenoid in hand and the shaft facing out in front of you, the right hand terminal is number four and connects to the relay. The left hand terminal connects to the kick down switch. A small amount of solenoids had a third wire that was a ground if yours is one of those check your shop manual and it will confirm where the third wire goes. Most solenoids had screw in terminals, a few had internal connections with wires coming out of the solenoid. Wiring connections for both are the same.

When changing the solenoid we recommend always changing the seal in the transmission. This will prevent oil from entering into your new solenoid.
There is a seal in the solenoid itself that can;t be changed in the field. The seal that you can change is in the transmission where the shaft goes through. "


A few parts surprise me how expensive they are, most are super cheap, and the stuff lasts forever so you only buy it once.

Brian
1959 Rambler American daily driver. And I mean EVERY SINGLE day.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote farna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/14/2018 at 9:21am
One more thing -- your car never had an OD relay!! Governor, solenoid, kick-down switch is all it had. The governor is the two wire type and pretty much takes the place of the relay. Rambler OD installations with a single wire governor have a relay (64 big cars do). The single wire governor grounds through the trans case. You can replace a single wire with a two wire easily -- just run one of the terminals to ground (doesn't matter which, it's a simple switch). To use a one wire in a two wire system, you'd have to isolate the grounded side of the switch and run another wire. The two wire are the most common, luckily. The switch is contained on the cover, so you could convert a one wire to two, but would be a bit of work.

The only part hard to replace is that "ratcheting" kick-down switch. It could be worked out with a couple 5 terminal Bosch relays and a momentary switch (or two), but I haven't done it. On those the relay contacts are closed when off in one position, open in the other. Hmmm... when switch is closed relay needs to cut power to coil, but as soon as power is cut relay needs to be turned off. So the NC set of points is connected to coil, when switch is pressed the contacts open, killing coil. The NO set of a second relay could be connected to the power line of the first relay, killing the circuit as soon as the contacts close. Well, that won't work! It will, but not if the momentary switch is being held open! Then it would be a continuous loop... Not so easy!!

My first thought is to put a timer in the circuit to stop the loop, but how long? You may want to hold the accelerator down for up to a minute when passing, but maybe you're pulling a load up a long hill and it takes longer... That wouldn't be a big issue, circuit would just repeat after one minute and give a slight hesitation and reset. But what if you floor it to accelerate, takes only 20-30 seconds, then something happens in the next 10-15 seconds (under a minute) and you need to accelerate again? Car would bog still in OD.... That second scenario isn't likely to happen, but if it did it could be dangerous.

Just preliminary thoughts... someone more versed with electronics (hint Tom!!) could probably work it out easy enough. The relay on/off sequence might even be too fast, the "ratchet" switch is quick but may be noticeably slower than the relay action...  needs about 0.2 seconds of motor off to kick down (just a guess...)...

Why bother? The relays are now cheap -- $10.95 for a set of six with sockets on Amazon. Might have a little business for you Tom! $2 for relays, $1 momentary switch, maybe a $1 strip of sheet metal for a switch mount (I've used metal plumbers tape for that... switch doesn't take much pressure to push, won't hurt if mount has some springiness). But what else is needed to make it work like the factory switch, and would there be much interest? 


Edited by farna - Jan/14/2018 at 10:15am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote auag85201 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/14/2018 at 10:59pm
frank.....i looked on wiring diagrams and couldnt find a relay so i came to the same conclusion......i took the kickdown switch apart and cleaned and lubed it so it works now...as long as the governor and solenoid are ok the overdrive should work...i did a complete brake job...shoes...rubber lines...wheel cylinders and master cylinder (everything for about 100 bucks at rock auto)...i decided to pull the tank and have it boiled ..(i have a friend that owns a radiator shop so he can handle it for me)..i'm chipping away at the beast and making good progress...i also scored some ralley wheels from a ford ranger ..(they look like late 60's chevy ralley wheels)...as soon as i get the gas tank back i'll be ready for a test run
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote farna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/15/2018 at 7:24am
First things to check if it doesn't work are the points in the governor and the solenoid. Cover easily comes off each. Just lightly file/sandpaper the points to clean. As long as the fuse is good and the solenoid is strong enough you should be good to go!

Hang a half gallon milk jug or something that holds at least a quart of gas under the hood and run a hose from the fuel pump into it. Can't go far, but can drive it around the block a few times!!  Shouldn't have a problem hanging something on the right side, away from the exhaust manifold.
Frank Swygert
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