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What is an E-stick?

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IowaTom View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IowaTom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: What is an E-stick?
    Posted: Jul/04/2018 at 5:50am
In shopping for clutch parts, I'm seeing notations for an E-stick.  Forgive my ignorance, but what the heck is that?  Confused
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rms827 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rms827 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul/04/2018 at 6:10am
It's a transmission that AMC came out with in 62.  I hadn't heard of it either till I went parts shopping

https://www.sae.org/publications/technical-papers/content/620106/
1964 AMC Rambler Classic 660

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rocklandrambler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul/04/2018 at 6:22am
The E-stick system is, I believe, very similar to the early Chrysler Fluid-Drive.  Once the car is in motion the need to operate  the clutch for 2nd and 3rd gears is eliminated.  From looking at the TSM it was quite complicated which probably lead to its early demise.  I think '64 was the last year for it.
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IowaTom View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IowaTom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul/04/2018 at 6:54am
Interesting!  Thanks guys.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tomj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul/04/2018 at 10:06pm
what's E-Stick? a really bad idea, badly done! or, an OK concept, badly done.

a semi-automatic clutch, like a centrifugal clutch on a go-kart (remember those?!). alas, it relied on less-repeatable-than-necessary engine oil pressure to engage the clutch.

the idea isn't bad, the execution is bizarrely awful.

the idea is, engine oil pressure is two things at once:  1) a SIGNAL that indicates when the engine (the driver's foot) is speeding up to go and 2) a source of motive force for clutch actuation. the problem is that engine oil pressure vs. rpm isn't consistent, and drops with age (and quality of maintenance, and ambient temperature, and oil grade, and other crazily subjective factors).

the problem was, when oil pressure was lower than expected (a whole world of variability in that phrase...) the clutch wasn't engaged sufficiently, it slipped, the car became undrivable, the clutch smelled really bad and the car was towed to the dealer to have it converted to a regular clutch at great expense and inconvenience.

it's so obviously unreliable on it's face it's shocking it got out the door.

it's also very complicated. even the steering column was unique to E-Stick. engine oil pump, everything.

i'd love to have one of the oil pumps though!!!

to do it "right" would have required automatic-transmission type hyd control, or today, of course, a small computer and servos.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote farna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul/05/2018 at 8:15am
Chrysler Fluid Drive was basically a torque converter with a manual trans. The E-stick is an automatic clutch. You still shift normally, just don't use the clutch. The trans itself was the same of T-96 we all love to hate. The clutch was bigger because it didn't have much pressure on it. Like Tom says, it used engine oil pressure as a hydraulic source. Worked okay until you started to get a good bit of engine wear. I had one once, had about 80K on it and the clutch slipped a lot more than was intended.  The guy I got the car from already had the conversion (to regular clutch) pieces, so I converted it.

The control system is kind of complex, so I won't go into that. The clutch worked in reverse though. The fork actually put pressure ON the clutch, the pressure plate was really a "no pressure" plate -- the springs pulled it back instead of against the clutch and flywheel. The fork was connected to a hydraulic servo similar to an external slave cylinder on a hydraulic clutch setup. The sevo worked off engine oil pressure. The general theory was that as engine rpm (and therefore vehicle speed) rose so did oil pressure, and pressure on the clutch. The controls were a set of electric and vacuum switches that released the clutch whenever the gear shifter was in neutral and the gas pedal was released. You let off the gas to shift just as you would with a clutch. The electric switches were an additional safety so the clutch wouldn't engage unless you were in gear.

From reports I've read and a few people who have had them, the system worked well as long as you had a good healthy engine.  You'd go through clutches fast with lots of stop-and-go driving, but if you lived in the suburbs and had a good mix of city/highway driving it worked fine. City delivery cars went through clutches really fast though. I remember reading one report in Popular Mechanics (or some similar magazine) where a company had bought 2-3 for city delivery vehicles and were going through a clutch every 6-8 months. They weren't happy! Delivered a bit better gas mileage and was cheaper then an auto trans -- only a $60 option compared to $165 for an auto... in an around $1800 base price car. Add $102 for an OD trans... which could be had with E-stick also.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Buzzman72 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul/05/2018 at 5:08pm
Sounds like an upgrade of the old Hudson "Drive-Master" setup.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fluffy73 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul/05/2018 at 6:56pm
Originally posted by rocklandrambler rocklandrambler wrote:

The E-stick system is, I believe, very similar to the early Chrysler Fluid-Drive.  Once the car is in motion the need to operate  the clutch for 2nd and 3rd gears is eliminated.  From looking at the TSM it was quite complicated which probably lead to its early demise.  I think '64 was the last year for it.


Not at all.  E-Stick is like others have described above.

Fluid Drive is nothing more than a fluid coupling (not a torque converter) between the clutch and engine.  All Fluid-Drive really did was eliminate the necessity of operating the clutch during stop & go driving. You still needed to use the clutch pedal to shift between the two (or three) gears.  But you did not have to push the clutch pedal when you came to a stop.

But then it got confusing because over the next few years (between '46 and '54), Dodge, Chrysler and DeSoto (but not Plymouth!) all used different names; such as: Vacamatic, Prestomatic, Fluidmatic (Chrysler), Simplimatic, Tip-Toe Hydraulic Shift (DeSoto) and Gyromatic (Dodge) to describe the next iteration of the transmission, known internally as the M4, and the M6.

BUT, they were all still known as "Fluid-Drive" because they all used the same fluid coupling between engine and clutch, except for the M6.

The M6 was the most complex.  This did use a torque converter, fed by engine oil, coupled to a clutch, a two-speed manual transmission and an electric underdrive planetary box. This gave you four forward engine speeds, free-wheeling on 2nd and 4th, did not need to employ the clutch pedal to start off but only needed the clutch pedal to select "ranges". (Lo, Hi and Reverse)

But it only offered two automatic shifts. You could start the car off in either Lo or Hi (sometimes labelled "Drive") ranges. Lo gave you two forward speeds with an automatic upshift to "second" ratio.  In essence, the two-speed transmission stayed in place while the aux box shifted from under to direct.  The same thing happened in "Hi" or "Drive". You started off in "third" ratio, and eventually when conditions were right, you got an automatic upshift from under to direct.

They're all really ingenious devices.  Quite literally, you never had to change the clutch in these cars - ever - due to you never actually wearing the clutch out! Most of the wear is caused by starting off, so by eliminating that, you eliminated 90% of the wear.  Also, oil changes were "seasonal" or once a year!  Since the fluid coupling or torque converter used engine oil, capacity was somewhere in the neighborhood of 12-16 quarts, so it took forever for the engine oil to get dirty.

Why Chrysler wasted years and all their R&D money on it though instead of just trying for a fully automatic just seems insane to me. Considering that Studebaker, Packard even Tucker had all developed their own fully automatics.... Chrysler was seriously beating a dead horse - especially by 1954!  Even Chevy had the Powerglide by that point!

I am genetically incapable of being Politically Correct.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ramblinrev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul/05/2018 at 8:24pm
Originally posted by rocklandrambler rocklandrambler wrote:

The E-stick system is, I believe, very similar to the early Chrysler Fluid-Drive.  Once the car is in motion the need to operate  the clutch for 2nd and 3rd gears is eliminated.  From looking at the TSM it was quite complicated which probably lead to its early demise.  I think '64 was the last year for it.


No, it's not a semi-automatic transmission. It's an automatic clutch on a manual transmission. It worked fairly well, was an inexpensive option; and was not very popular.

Various carmakers tried to make an automatic clutch work. Come to think of it, isn't that part of the idea for today's dual-clutch automatics?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ramblinrev Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul/05/2018 at 8:26pm
Note to Tom J:
I have one of those e-stick oil pumps. Contact me if interested:

paul.mittermaier@gmail.com
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