Your donations help keep this valuable resource free and growing. Thank you.
|
What is an E-stick? |
Post Reply | Page 12> |
Author | |
IowaTom
AMC Nut Joined: Mar/07/2018 Location: Kent Washington Status: Offline Points: 448 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Posted: Jul/04/2018 at 5:50am |
In shopping for clutch parts, I'm seeing notations for an E-stick. Forgive my ignorance, but what the heck is that?
|
|
rms827
AMC Nut Joined: Apr/18/2018 Location: California Status: Offline Points: 378 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
It's a transmission that AMC came out with in 62. I hadn't heard of it either till I went parts shopping https://www.sae.org/publications/technical-papers/content/620106/
|
|
1964 AMC Rambler Classic 660
"You can think I'm an idiot, just don't talk to me like I'm one." - Batman |
|
rocklandrambler
AMC Addicted Joined: Feb/09/2013 Location: Nanuet, NY Status: Offline Points: 3953 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
The E-stick system is, I believe, very similar to the early Chrysler Fluid-Drive. Once the car is in motion the need to operate the clutch for 2nd and 3rd gears is eliminated. From looking at the TSM it was quite complicated which probably lead to its early demise. I think '64 was the last year for it.
|
|
Past AMC's
1974 Hornet X (new) 1975 Gremlin X (new) 1964 Classic 660 Cross Country 1965 American 440-H |
|
IowaTom
AMC Nut Joined: Mar/07/2018 Location: Kent Washington Status: Offline Points: 448 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Interesting! Thanks guys.
|
|
tomj
AMC Addicted Joined: Jan/27/2010 Location: earth Status: Offline Points: 7544 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
what's E-Stick? a really bad idea, badly done! or, an OK concept, badly done. a semi-automatic clutch, like a centrifugal clutch on a go-kart (remember those?!). alas, it relied on less-repeatable-than-necessary engine oil pressure to engage the clutch. the idea isn't bad, the execution is bizarrely awful. the idea is, engine oil pressure is two things at once: 1) a SIGNAL that indicates when the engine (the driver's foot) is speeding up to go and 2) a source of motive force for clutch actuation. the problem is that engine oil pressure vs. rpm isn't consistent, and drops with age (and quality of maintenance, and ambient temperature, and oil grade, and other crazily subjective factors). the problem was, when oil pressure was lower than expected (a whole world of variability in that phrase...) the clutch wasn't engaged sufficiently, it slipped, the car became undrivable, the clutch smelled really bad and the car was towed to the dealer to have it converted to a regular clutch at great expense and inconvenience. it's so obviously unreliable on it's face it's shocking it got out the door. it's also very complicated. even the steering column was unique to E-Stick. engine oil pump, everything. i'd love to have one of the oil pumps though!!! to do it "right" would have required automatic-transmission type hyd control, or today, of course, a small computer and servos. |
|
1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto
1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5 http://www.ramblerLore.com |
|
farna
Supporter of TheAMCForum Moderator Lost Dealership Project Joined: Jul/08/2007 Location: South Carolina Status: Offline Points: 19676 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Chrysler Fluid Drive was basically a torque converter with a manual trans. The E-stick is an automatic clutch. You still shift normally, just don't use the clutch. The trans itself was the same of T-96 we all love to hate. The clutch was bigger because it didn't have much pressure on it. Like Tom says, it used engine oil pressure as a hydraulic source. Worked okay until you started to get a good bit of engine wear. I had one once, had about 80K on it and the clutch slipped a lot more than was intended. The guy I got the car from already had the conversion (to regular clutch) pieces, so I converted it. The control system is kind of complex, so I won't go into that. The clutch worked in reverse though. The fork actually put pressure ON the clutch, the pressure plate was really a "no pressure" plate -- the springs pulled it back instead of against the clutch and flywheel. The fork was connected to a hydraulic servo similar to an external slave cylinder on a hydraulic clutch setup. The sevo worked off engine oil pressure. The general theory was that as engine rpm (and therefore vehicle speed) rose so did oil pressure, and pressure on the clutch. The controls were a set of electric and vacuum switches that released the clutch whenever the gear shifter was in neutral and the gas pedal was released. You let off the gas to shift just as you would with a clutch. The electric switches were an additional safety so the clutch wouldn't engage unless you were in gear. From reports I've read and a few people who have had them, the system worked well as long as you had a good healthy engine. You'd go through clutches fast with lots of stop-and-go driving, but if you lived in the suburbs and had a good mix of city/highway driving it worked fine. City delivery cars went through clutches really fast though. I remember reading one report in Popular Mechanics (or some similar magazine) where a company had bought 2-3 for city delivery vehicles and were going through a clutch every 6-8 months. They weren't happy! Delivered a bit better gas mileage and was cheaper then an auto trans -- only a $60 option compared to $165 for an auto... in an around $1800 base price car. Add $102 for an OD trans... which could be had with E-stick also.
|
|
Frank Swygert
|
|
Buzzman72
AMC Addicted Joined: Sep/15/2009 Location: Southern IN Status: Offline Points: 2725 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Sounds like an upgrade of the old Hudson "Drive-Master" setup.
|
|
Buzzman72...void where prohibited, your mileage may vary, objects in mirror may be closer than they appear, and alcohol may intensify any side effects.
|
|
Fluffy73
AMC Addicted Joined: Nov/21/2007 Location: Castlegar, BC Status: Online Points: 3059 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Not at all. E-Stick is like others have described above. Fluid Drive is nothing more than a fluid coupling (not a torque converter) between the clutch and engine. All Fluid-Drive really did was eliminate the necessity of operating the clutch during stop & go driving. You still needed to use the clutch pedal to shift between the two (or three) gears. But you did not have to push the clutch pedal when you came to a stop. But then it got confusing because over the next few years (between '46 and '54), Dodge, Chrysler and DeSoto (but not Plymouth!) all used different names; such as: Vacamatic, Prestomatic, Fluidmatic (Chrysler), Simplimatic, Tip-Toe Hydraulic Shift (DeSoto) and Gyromatic (Dodge) to describe the next iteration of the transmission, known internally as the M4, and the M6. BUT, they were all still known as "Fluid-Drive" because they all used the same fluid coupling between engine and clutch, except for the M6. The M6 was the most complex. This did use a torque converter, fed by engine oil, coupled to a clutch, a two-speed manual transmission and an electric underdrive planetary box. This gave you four forward engine speeds, free-wheeling on 2nd and 4th, did not need to employ the clutch pedal to start off but only needed the clutch pedal to select "ranges". (Lo, Hi and Reverse) But it only offered two automatic shifts. You could start the car off in either Lo or Hi (sometimes labelled "Drive") ranges. Lo gave you two forward speeds with an automatic upshift to "second" ratio. In essence, the two-speed transmission stayed in place while the aux box shifted from under to direct. The same thing happened in "Hi" or "Drive". You started off in "third" ratio, and eventually when conditions were right, you got an automatic upshift from under to direct. They're all really ingenious devices. Quite literally, you never had to change the clutch in these cars - ever - due to you never actually wearing the clutch out! Most of the wear is caused by starting off, so by eliminating that, you eliminated 90% of the wear. Also, oil changes were "seasonal" or once a year! Since the fluid coupling or torque converter used engine oil, capacity was somewhere in the neighborhood of 12-16 quarts, so it took forever for the engine oil to get dirty. Why Chrysler wasted years and all their R&D money on it though instead of just trying for a fully automatic just seems insane to me. Considering that Studebaker, Packard even Tucker had all developed their own fully automatics.... Chrysler was seriously beating a dead horse - especially by 1954! Even Chevy had the Powerglide by that point! |
|
I am genetically incapable of being Politically Correct.
|
|
ramblinrev
Moderator Group Joined: Dec/28/2008 Location: Wisconsin Status: Offline Points: 11538 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
No, it's not a semi-automatic transmission. It's an automatic clutch on a manual transmission. It worked fairly well, was an inexpensive option; and was not very popular. Various carmakers tried to make an automatic clutch work. Come to think of it, isn't that part of the idea for today's dual-clutch automatics? |
|
74 Hornet Hatchback X twins (since 1977)
62 American Convertible (still worth the $50 I spent in 1973!) AMCRC #513, AMO #384 70 AMX 360 4-speed (since 1981) |
|
ramblinrev
Moderator Group Joined: Dec/28/2008 Location: Wisconsin Status: Offline Points: 11538 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
Note to Tom J: I have one of those e-stick oil pumps. Contact me if interested: paul.mittermaier@gmail.com
|
|
74 Hornet Hatchback X twins (since 1977)
62 American Convertible (still worth the $50 I spent in 1973!) AMCRC #513, AMO #384 70 AMX 360 4-speed (since 1981) |
|
Post Reply | Page 12> |
Tweet
|
Forum Jump | Forum Permissions You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum |