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Weber's and Inline 6 |
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farna
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Posted: May/18/2009 at 9:29am |
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I think a set of six motorcycle carbs from a 1000cc or larger bike would work well. I've seen them on a Ford 240 six. Those carbs aren't near as touchy as the Webers, probably not as efficient at lower speeds either though.
For those who don't think they would be large enough, remember that the two stage Webers most Jeepers use have a 32 mm primary, 36 mm secondary. My 1000cc Suzuki has a 35-40 mm carb for each cylinder. You have to remember that the red-line on the bike tach is 9,000 rpm, and it's seen 12,000 before (though rarely!). Even with a small 250 cc (15.26 ci) displacement that's a good bit of fuel! According to the calculator at http://golenengineservice.com/calc/calccarb.htm, a 250 cc engine turning 12,000 rpm needs 52.90 cfm (one cylinder of the 1000), 9,000 needs 39.73 cfm. One cylinder of a 258 (43 ci) turning 4,200 rpm needs 52.26 cfm, 3,000 rpm needs 37.33 cfm. So high end power would be limited by the carbs, but throttle response and low end power should be wicked, as John (nosigma) will attest! My car rarely sees more than 3,000 rpm, as is the case with most street driven sixes. Most driving is done in the 2000-2500 rpm range. I don't think the throttle and fuel would be too hard to rig. On mine the carbs are all held together by a small piece of angle screwed to the back of the carbs. Fuel delivery is via a tube with o-rings that pushes into a socket between the carbs, so it flows from one carb to the one next to it. The end carbs have the outside hole plugged. One of the tubes has a T for the fuel line to connect to. The throttle shafts are all connected in a similar fashion. Should be easy enough to make longer tubes and throttle shaft connectors. I think I'd eliminate one of the center carbs from two sets of four (two sets of three), then use a Y in the fuel line to feed each. It shouldn't be hard to use two throttle cables from the carbs connected to one to the gas pedal. Some bikes are set up that way -- usually two cylinder (two carb) engines. |
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Frank Swygert
American Motors Cars Magazine www.amc-mag.com |
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TinMan
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Joined: Mar/23/2008 Location: Lockport, IL Status: Offline Points: 1649 |
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Posted: May/18/2009 at 8:40pm |
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nosigma, you don't happen to have any pictures of your setup together, do you?
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nosigma
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Joined: Dec/30/2007 Status: Offline Points: 188 |
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Posted: May/19/2009 at 9:47am |
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Here is a picture of the installation. Note how tight the air horns are on the center carb to the fenderwell. I had to use a set of special short 270 degree lip air horns at this location and build a custom airbox to fit. On the rear carb the airhorns and the foam socks tuck in above the steering shaft and under the master cylinder. I had to shim up the DS engine mount about 1/2 inch and adjust the transmission mount so they would fit and not hit when the engine rocked under torque load. Its a tight fit with about 1/2 inch up travel before they hit the master and 1/4 inch down travel before they hit the steering shaft. This was just one of many delicate adjustments needed to get everything to work right. The LONG runners are the key to building the torque. I also used an old set of LONG primary 258 Clifford split headers that were modified to fit the 4.0 head. Clifford Engineering made great stuff, Clifford research not so great.
SixPack did the same thing but with an IR injector set up. Much smarter way to go. John ![]() |
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forest
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Posted: May/19/2009 at 11:13am |
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Interesting, and looks nice. I would need somthing that could pull 7500rpm or so though. I have a holley 600 double pumper and it should be perfect for what I am doing with the car. I know I will have no bottom end, but with the camshaft I have, I already killed that anyways. The only thing I do not like about the 4bbl setup is the fuel/air distribution. I have done some flow testing with my nitrous plate, and have started to build dividers to redirect the airflow and nitrous distribution when spraying it heavy, the doiwbside is, I think it going to hurt power on motor with the dividers based on the airflow loss I am seeing. I do have a fogger that is good for roughly 550ish hp alone, and a plate good for 250ish hp, So, I am sure the fogger will be in play more than the plate. The downside is, I wanted to fogger to be the second stage with a big hit, and launch on the plate.... Let me know if you do decide to sell it all, and also what CFM the carbs flow....
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setting guys out by car lengths....
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farna
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Posted: May/19/2009 at 11:29am |
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It wouldn't be hard to bend some tubing and make a pair of three cylinder intakes. One tube bent in a "U" connecting cylinders #1 and #3, then cut a hole in the center and weld #2 in. Same for the rear three. Well, you have to mount the carb, so a plenum box would be at the junction point, but you get the idea. Running a pair of 2Vs or even 1Vs with such a setup would be better than the single long intake. Mount the NOS fogger jets in the plenums.
If you want long runners, use tubing and curve them over the valve cover then mount the Webers. Something like that would work in a Jeep, probably not enough room in something like the American, but keep the tubes right on the valve cover then dip doen on the passenger side and I think it would work. Getting to the distributor would be another matter! With a 4.0L use the DIS system. |
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Frank Swygert
American Motors Cars Magazine www.amc-mag.com |
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forest
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Posted: May/19/2009 at 11:47am |
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I thought about fabbing an intake up, being as I can do full tig welding and metal fab here, but, the work involved is just too much when I just want to get my motor in right now. Its all ready, I just need to get some time. Customers are always first...... I thought that was why I got out of my buisness anyways.... where did I go wrong? I sold my buisness and still have the same problem lol.
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setting guys out by car lengths....
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billd
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Forum Administrator Joined: Jun/27/2007 Location: Iowa Status: Offline Points: 22770 |
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Posted: May/19/2009 at 12:01pm |
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Not just a matter of grabbing some tubes and bending them..... you need to calculate the inside cross-sectional area and tube length (meaning TOTAL length including any plenum and the head runner distance to the valve)
Otherwise, you are just bending tubes and hoping for an intake that works ok. Takes some figuring to get it right - to coincide with the cam and RPM range you want, and where you want the torque shifted to. The 94 4.0 intake, for example, has 9.5" long runners and a cross sectional area of 2.234 sq. in The distance from the intake valve to the port opening is 3.5" so the total tube length is 13" plenum to valve. According to the factory calculations, the intake runner area and length are tuned to resonate and produce an inertial supercharging effect at 5000rpm. About right for the peak HP RPM of a 4.0 high-output engine. |
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forest
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Posted: May/19/2009 at 12:03pm |
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^^^^^^^ hence the reason I dont have the time to do this, maybe one day, but I think it would get a turbo and alcohol first |
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setting guys out by car lengths....
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TinMan
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Joined: Mar/23/2008 Location: Lockport, IL Status: Offline Points: 1649 |
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Posted: May/19/2009 at 4:55pm |
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It's a good looking setup, reminds me of an engine I would love to own, the Chrysler 265 that the Aussies got to have in their Valiants.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysler_Hemi-6_Engine ![]() |
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farna
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Posted: May/19/2009 at 5:20pm |
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Bill, a simple tube intake wouldn't be perfectly tuned, but it should still work reasonably well. Take a look at the Weber "manifolds" on both the AMC and Valiant six. They are only about 3" long and have some sharp angles in order to keep them short and adapt the carbs to the head. I'd say they were more "adapters" than true intakes. The tubes holding the carbs on my bike are even shorter -- 2" or less. Tuning the intake would certainly help squeeze out a little more power and efficiency, but the improvement in fuel distribution of something simple should help -- or at least not run any worse than one of the old early factory log types while still giving a little gain due to the more even fuel distribution. Just my opinion, of course!
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Frank Swygert
American Motors Cars Magazine www.amc-mag.com |
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