TheAMCForum.com Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > The Garage > AMC V8 Engine Repair and Modifications
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Water Pump Info circa 2019
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Click for TheAMCForum Rules / Click for PDF version of Forum Rules
Your donations help keep this valuable resource free and growing. Thank you.

Water Pump Info circa 2019

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234>
Author
Message
Hurst390 View Drop Down
AMC Addicted
AMC Addicted
Avatar

Joined: Apr/20/2008
Location: secret
Status: Offline
Points: 4010
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hurst390 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/16/2019 at 5:29am
SC/Hurst Rambler

11.62 120

100% Street Legal
Back to Top
304-dude View Drop Down
AMC Addicted
AMC Addicted
Avatar

Joined: Sep/29/2008
Location: Central Illinoi
Status: Online
Points: 7533
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 304-dude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/16/2019 at 5:50am
Originally posted by Hurst390 Hurst390 wrote:





Thanks! Seems that side loading with accessories is not the issue with bearing breakout.

The only other thing would be cooling fan type. Looks like you have chosen proper mechanical fan for your application.

As noted in the picture, a 4 blade, which uses less torque for high rpm use.

So, in short there is no reason for nose breakage from overall design, if properly installed, and use with a proper fan for engine application.

As stated by the reply that brought up breakage, a heavy clutch fan in high performance use shouldnt be used. I dont know of any strip cars using them, if any thing, electic fans are common.

Well, it seems like a lot of hot air on theory with why there is pump breakage. Maybe a wee lot of bad castings, who knows?
71 Javelin SST body
390 69 crank, 70 block & heads
NASCAR SB2 rods & pistons
78 Jeep TH400 w/ 2.76 Low
50/50 Ford-AMC Suspension
79 F150 rear & 8.8 axles
Ford Racing 3.25 gears & 9" /w Detroit locker
Back to Top
ChillyB View Drop Down
AMC Nut
AMC Nut
Avatar

Joined: Nov/14/2018
Location: PA
Status: Offline
Points: 367
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ChillyB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/16/2019 at 6:05am
Here is a theory based on mostly nothing.  The fan will have considerable gyroscope effect that torques it sideways under acceleration and deceleration. Holding a spinning bearing isnt a tough job and the side load on the bearing due to belts and weight of fan seems insufficient to break anything.  But that gyro effect can apply side loads that seem disproportionate to the static weight of the loads hanging on it.  Now cantilever all of that gyro load out on the end of a shaft with an extension.

Some of you guys are obviously running thise pumps hard and not breaking them.  But that's the nature of design reliability.  Rarely is the design so bad that it fails most of the time.  But a premature failure rate as low as 5% is still pretty awful.  And a lot of customers will feel OK about the product because theyre part of the 95%. 
Back to Top
farna View Drop Down
Supporter of TheAMCForum
Supporter of TheAMCForum
Avatar
Moderator Lost Dealership Project

Joined: Jul/08/2007
Location: South Carolina
Status: Offline
Points: 16136
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote farna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/16/2019 at 6:30am
The race cars are using a light weight fan or electric fans. A street application will use a heavier fan, and in some cases a clutch fan.  I suspect those using a light weight fan or electrics fans (no engine fan) don't have an issue, but running something heavy like a clutch fan causes breaking.. as already mentioned. They seem to hold up fine at more normal street rpm though (only occasional short burst to 5000 rpm or so, hardly ever higher).

Not really necessary here, but I'll point out that the stock AMC pump (or the MOPAR!) wasn't designed to work at sustained high rpm. Stock pumps are designed to work well in normal driving ranges -- like idle to 3000-3500 rpm. Start getting over 5000 for any length of time and I can understand having issues!!
Frank Swygert
Back to Top
304-dude View Drop Down
AMC Addicted
AMC Addicted
Avatar

Joined: Sep/29/2008
Location: Central Illinoi
Status: Online
Points: 7533
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 304-dude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/16/2019 at 6:31am
Originally posted by ChillyB ChillyB wrote:

Here is a theory based on mostly nothing.  The fan will have considerable gyroscope effect that torques it sideways under acceleration and deceleration. Holding a spinning bearing isnt a tough job and the side load on the bearing due to belts and weight of fan seems insufficient to break anything.  But that gyro effect can apply side loads that seem disproportionate to the static weight of the loads hanging on it.  Now cantilever all of that gyro load out on the end of a shaft with an extension.

Some of you guys are obviously running thise pumps hard and not breaking them.  But that's the nature of design reliability.  Rarely is the design so bad that it fails most of the time.  But a premature failure rate as low as 5% is still pretty awful.  And a lot of customers will feel OK about the product because theyre part of the 95%. 


Its mostly about the snap of sudden change on rotational forces. The spin of the fan and its mass, along with accessories with pull the nose to the driver side, and torque twist. Plus if one is to romp and stomp roller coaster rpms, they are begging to snap a nose off, when a mechanical fan is too great for the demands of the application.
71 Javelin SST body
390 69 crank, 70 block & heads
NASCAR SB2 rods & pistons
78 Jeep TH400 w/ 2.76 Low
50/50 Ford-AMC Suspension
79 F150 rear & 8.8 axles
Ford Racing 3.25 gears & 9" /w Detroit locker
Back to Top
SC397 View Drop Down
AMC Addicted
AMC Addicted
Avatar

Joined: Apr/30/2009
Location: Michigan
Status: Offline
Points: 2936
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote SC397 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/16/2019 at 7:16am
There are at least 2 guys in the Detroit area that rebuilds original water pumps if anyone is interested.  I have been taking a few of my cores with the part numbers in to this fellow.  He is very reasonable, ships, and has a one year warranty.  I will post up pictures etc. when I get a chance. 
Dan Bailey
4706 Detroit St
Dearborn Hts, MI 48125
313-530-2893



Edited by SC397 - May/16/2019 at 7:31am
Back to Top
bigbad69 View Drop Down
Supporter of TheAMCForum
Supporter of TheAMCForum
Avatar

Joined: Jul/02/2007
Location: Ottawa, Ont.
Status: Offline
Points: 4228
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bigbad69 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/16/2019 at 8:24am
Originally posted by ChillyB ChillyB wrote:

Holding a spinning bearing isnt a tough job and the side load on the bearing due to belts and weight of fan seems insufficient to break anything.
If the rotating assembly is even slightly out of balance, it will vibrate. Those vibrations will be transmitted directly to the bearing. The amount of vibration will be determined by the amount of imbalance, the mass of the rotating assembly, and the RPM. Vibrations will also grow exponentially if the system encounters a resonance.

There are lots of variables. If the bearing and bearing retainer (in this case the pump casting) design is marginal, some will fail, and some won't.
My garage:
2018 300 5.7 - daily driver
2006 Sierra 4.8 - backup vehicle and sometimes hauler
1969 BBO Javelin 390 T10 - my neverending project
Back to Top
Red Devil View Drop Down
AMC Addicted
AMC Addicted


Joined: Jul/10/2007
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 1599
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Red Devil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/16/2019 at 12:09pm
I have a Flowkooler aluminum pump (GMB with Flowkooler impeller) with a thermostatic clutch 18" fixed fan (heavy compared to a stock flex fan), PS with AGR pump, Delco alternator on my '74 Javelin 401.  Sees 6500 rpm on occasion (rev limiter).   Been fine for 10 years, but just a summer cruiser so not lots of miles. 
Different combinations will have different harmonics and different loading.  If you're concerned, save up and buy an Edelbrock pump.
 
Hope this helps, RD.
Back to Top
Greyhounds_AMX View Drop Down
AMC Addicted
AMC Addicted
Avatar

Joined: Nov/14/2009
Location: Kansas City
Status: Offline
Points: 897
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Greyhounds_AMX Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/21/2019 at 12:32pm



So I ordered the GMB-1040P, which is their aluminum high-performance pump version. Again, here's their lineup: 

1) 110-2908: Cast iron stock replacement pump, long housing, late model design.

2) 110-1040AL: Aluminum housing long late model pump.

3) 110-1040P: High-performance version of 1040AL. 

They tout the 1040P high-performance version as having a better impeller and better bearings, and compared to the stock replacement version that appears to be true. The shaft on the 1040P is larger than stock at 0.750" diameter, and is turned down to 0.625" for the pump mounting flange, which is really nice as then the bearings are larger. Unfortunately it does prevent us from pressing the flange on further to make a long pump into a short pump. The impeller on the 1040P is a different shape than the stock replacement version, having the same number of vanes, but they are longer. The lower cost 1040AL appears to use the same impeller design, so I expect that the difference between the 1040AL and the high-performance 1040P is the larger shaft/bearings used in the 1040P. 

Here you can see the larger shaft diameter as it comes out of the pump housing, then back down to 0.625" for the mounting flange. 

For comparison, here's a NAPA pump, the shaft is 0.625" diameter all the way through.



If you consider that the GMB pump flange location is actually 3/8" further out than the stock pump shown (late model vs early pump), you realize that the GMB housing extends out further than the stock unit did, placing the bearing closer to the load. And if you compare the relative diameters of the bearing housing area to the diameter of the fan/pulley flange, it's looks like the GMB casting is a bit larger OD in the bearing area. And it has a bunch of reinforcing ribs as well.


Edited by Greyhounds_AMX - May/21/2019 at 12:44pm
1968 AMX 390 w/T5
Back to Top
Greyhounds_AMX View Drop Down
AMC Addicted
AMC Addicted
Avatar

Joined: Nov/14/2009
Location: Kansas City
Status: Offline
Points: 897
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Greyhounds_AMX Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/24/2019 at 12:48pm
I measured and found that the GMB aluminum pump only has 3/16" of clearance between the back of the fan mounting flange and the shaft seal face. 

So even if the lower tier 110-1040AL version has a 0.625" shaft all the way, there's not enough room to push the flange on further and make it line up with an early crank pulley. It would need to be pressed on 5/16" further, and there's only 3/16" available.
1968 AMX 390 w/T5
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down



This page was generated in 0.094 seconds.
All content of this site Copyright © 2018 TheAMCForum unless otherwise noted, all rights reserved.
PROBLEMS LOGGING IN or REGISTERING:
If you have problems logging in or registering, then please contact a Moderator or