TheAMCForum.com Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > The Garage > Electrical - non engine
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Voltage problems
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Click for TheAMCForum Rules / Click for PDF version of Forum Rules
Your donations help keep this valuable resource free and growing. Thank you.

Voltage problems

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
Author
Message
sasyamx View Drop Down
AMC Addicted
AMC Addicted


Joined: Jul/24/2007
Location: Kentucky
Status: Offline
Points: 525
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sasyamx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Voltage problems
    Posted: Aug/17/2013 at 2:38am
I been having voltage problem, when i turn on my headlights and stuff it drops to about 11 to 10.5, so i went and got my alt tested and it as good, so i took my meter reader to it also and the alt to battery checks 13.5 to 13.3 with all my power stuff on the inside gauge says 10.5 -11, so i check the gauge by checking the fuse panel at some of the fuses it checks the same as the gauge with all of the powerstuff on with no stuff on car just running it checks 12.9 to 13.1 at the fuse box, the battery still reads 13.5 . My car is a 71 javelin running a delco alt , that's how it was when i got it it's a 7127 part # ,what should i check next?
Back to Top
304-dude View Drop Down
AMC Addicted
AMC Addicted
Avatar

Joined: Sep/29/2008
Location: Central Illinoi
Status: Offline
Points: 9082
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 304-dude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug/17/2013 at 7:49am
Clean all power terminals and posts along with body ground terminals and mating surfaces. I usually do a top coat of clear coat over the cleaned connections on daily drivers after verification that all continuity and voltage checks pass.

Once you have complete cleaning check for proper voltages at battery, starter relay input (main power distribution), and fuse panel (Interior distribution)you can ascertain which areas are effected.

From what you have stated, it may be just cleaning, but it is possible the main power leads going to the fuse block are corroded internally.

Since they are silicon and flexible, the jacket may throw you off on visuals. There are fuse-able links further in the harness where you can tap and replace if needed. Just because the fuse-able link is good, the main wire could be where your not getting proper continuity to pass voltage.



Back to Top
uncljohn View Drop Down
AMC Addicted
AMC Addicted
Avatar

Joined: Jan/03/2013
Location: Peoria AZ
Status: Offline
Points: 5394
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote uncljohn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug/17/2013 at 8:36am
your reading of 10.5-11 volts using a volt meter to read battery voltage at the battery.  I am assuming that this is done that way with the engine running and everything says there is a problem no matter what the alternator test says.

No matter what the situation is, a 71 Javelin does not use enough power to throw a delco Alternator out of regulation.  That reading should be 14.3 or so.
Why? Because it should.
And I have enough cars to verify that none of them are going to read 11 volts fully loading down the alternator.
You say it is a conversion?
Either the alternator bad or some one royally screwed up the conversion with wiring erros to the alternator.
A Delco alternator should be hooked up in your car like the following wiring diagram: ( Look for it I put it on here some where) The 15 ohm resisitor shown is some where in the under hood wiring on your car and is part of the wiring of your original alternator.  It is a resistance wire built into the wiring harness.
When found and used correctly on hooking up a Delco alternator the charging circuit for the regulator should work with the same idiot light the alternator you took out should work.
As some one writing on a forum thttp://theamcforum.com/forum/new_reply_form.asp?TID=53078&PN=1&TR=2hread I have no clue how your car was wired to make this Delco Alternator work.
But I can assure you something is wired wrong OR your alternator is no good.
But if I was standing at your car with a TSM I could figure it out.

You can see from the drawing that the BATTERY lead is some how with in the wiring harness hooked to pin 2.  So what ever the battery reads should also be read at pin 2.  If it does not the wring error is between pin 2 and the batter positive terminal.

Here is an explanation of what goes on with Pin #1.  It is the feed back line that controls the regulator:

WARNING LAMP

This brings us back full circle to the starting point – the alternator warning lamp. As can be seen from figure 5, a schematic for an actual alternator, there is a path to ground from the field current supply input [1] to the regulator. As a result, when the key is turned on, current flows through the warning lamp, through the resisters, transistors, and field coil, and then to ground, causing the lamp to illuminate. Once the alternator is at full output, voltage from the diode trio, also applied to [1], equals the battery voltage. At this time, with 12 volts on both sides, the lamp is out.

If the alternator should fail, voltage from the diode trio would drop, and once again the lamp would light from the battery voltage. If the alternator output is only a little low, the lamp will be dimly lit. If the alternator fails completely, and the output voltage goes to zero, the lamp will be lit at full brilliance. Conversely, if the battery should fail, and the battery voltage drops, with the output voltage of the alternator on one side and the low battery voltage on the other, the lamp will also light.

As stated earlier, if the light grows dimmer as the engine is revved up, it is because the alternator voltage is rising with the RPM, producing more voltage on the alternator side of the lamp. The closer the output voltage gets to the battery voltage, the dimmer the bulb becomes. By the same way, if the light gets brighter with increasing RPM, it is because as the alternator voltage increases, it is getting higher than the battery voltage. The higher the voltage with respect to the battery voltage, the greater the voltage difference across the lamp, and the brighter it gets.


At pin one, when the idiot light is out, the voltage there should equal the battery voltage measured at Pin 2. If battery voltage is low, then the voltage at pin 2 is also low and the sensing line, that at pin 1 has a problem.

Again, the problem probably exists due to the conversion.

I don't know how to tell  you any better, but you are looking for a wiring problems some where in the car and it probably is some where under the hood. Don't know, don't envy you, been there done that.

Do you have a TSM that gives a wiring diagram? It would help at the moment that you did.
70 390 5spd Donohue
74 Hornet In restoration
76 Hornet, 5.7L Mercury Marine Power
80 Fuel Injected I6 Spirit
74 232 I-6, 4bbl, 270HL Isky Cam
Back to Top
carnuck View Drop Down
AMC Addicted
AMC Addicted
Avatar

Joined: Mar/31/2010
Location: Seattle
Status: Offline
Points: 3942
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote carnuck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug/17/2013 at 9:21am
I lay odds the ground wire between the body and motor is missing or broken inside. Quick test: Find a good surface on the motor you can put a jumper cable onto that won't interfere with the fan/belt while running. Start the car and turn on the headlights. Put the other end of the jumper cable to the bumper (if they are chrome and not rubber isolated. Touch it underneath as there may be a small arc as the headlights suddenly get brighter)
   On some vehicles they have an ammeter which corrodes the anode side over time and creates resistance which drops the power (and can eventually lead to a Car-B-Que as some Jeep and early vehicle owners have found out the hard way)
Back to Top
billd View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group

Forum Administrator

Joined: Jun/27/2007
Location: Iowa
Status: Offline
Points: 30894
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote billd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug/17/2013 at 9:40am
Your voltage is on the low side, however, you really don't state what speed the engine is running at when you measure that. Obviously the inside gauge is wrong. In fact, I rarely actually use an inside meter if I want REALLY accurate readings as there's going to be voltage drop on the connections on these old cars.
 
First make sure some dummy didn't rig that alternator to run as a "single wire" or "one wire" system as shown in that above diagram. Make sure that wire -the sense wire - is run to the starter solenoid load side - the battery side. NOT connected back to the output of the alternator. All that does is measure alternator output, it doesn't measure the voltage at the actual load point, and at the battery. For the most accurate setup, for the longest battery life, run that sense wire to the battery side of the solenoid.
 
With the engine running about 1,000 RPM, you should be getting that 13.5 as a bare minimum! That's not even 1 volt over a battery at rest with car not running. Barely enough. The battery when fully charged should be 12.6 volts. (that's a fact, ignore the other crap you read about 12.4 or other voltages, it's a known given fact well published by all car makers a good battery fully charged engine not running should read 12.6 volts. at 12.4 the battery is only 75% charged, at 12.2 volts it's 50% charged)
Now here's a kicker - as battery technology changed over the years, so did GM's alternator output. They were actually tuned to put out the correct battery voltage for the battery technology used in their car at that time. We today toss in a universal will-fit regulator into a general universal alternator and assume life is great, it charges. So you are bound to see some varied specs involving charging system voltages, especially AMC and GM, as even AMC changed the voltage specs over the years!!
 
If you had, for sake of simplicity, 14 volts at the battery with engine running, you should have very close to that inside. If you do not, then there's a voltage drop between battery and fuse panel. Each wire will drop the voltage a bit over a long run, as will connections, so 14 at battery could be 13.6 or 13.7 inside and that's not terrible, HOWEVER, with age comes corrosion at the connection points.
Make sure to read this part -
YOU CAN NOT TELL BY LOOKING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Well, if it looks bad, it is really bad, but if it looks good, that does not mean it's good. If it's raining, it's cloudy, but if it's cloudy, it's not necessarily raining. Same for connections, if it looks dirty, it is, but if it looks good, take it apart and clean it anyway as you can't tell.
If each connection point dropped only a few tenths of a volt, you'd have a good size drop by the time you get inside. Not only will the voltage READ low inside, it won't have the "flow" to properly power the accessories - lights will be dimmer than they should and so on.
So pull the negative cable off the battery to start with, then starting at the battery, remove all cables and wires one at a time and clean the connections, put them back together snugly and keep doing that working your way back into the car and the fuse panel.  If a wire has a break in the insulation, it can corrode away inside the insulation over time, so any wires that feel rigid or crispy need to be replaced. Where terminals and connectors are crimped onto the wires they can corrode between the wire and connector, can't see it, but it can drop the voltage at that point, then where the connector pushes onto another or over a lug or stud can be a bad spot. So each wire connector has TWO chances of failing - or dropping voltage - where it crimps on or attaches to the wire or where the connector mates with another connector and so on.
 
Again, don't say "but it looks good" as you just can't tell by looking.
 
Example - my Eagle, which BTW is 11 years NEWER than your car, on the GROUND SIDE ALONE, headlight circuit, right side headlights, there was a measured 2.5 volt drop across the wires and connections. That means that at 12.6 volts the headlights got 10.1
With the engine running and alternator charging, the headlights didn't even get the at-rest battery voltage! No wonder they weren't all that bright even for 1982 headlight technology!
And that was the GROUND SIDE, I didn't yet measure the feed side............ It's possible that my headlights were getting when all was said and done only about 11 volts - maybe less - when I drove the car.
 
By the way, to measure voltage drop of a connection or wire. engine running, accessories on, such as lights, radio, heater blower motor, etc. - get your volt meter and put one lead on one side of a connection and the other lead on the other side, and it will tell you the voltage difference on each side of that connection. That is the voltage drop. Voltage drop is bad, very bad, unless it's intentional such as across a resistor.
So it you put one meter lead on the battery post itself, then the other lead on the cable clamp and read anything, you have a drop right where that cable connects to the battery post. If you put a lead on the pos battery post, and then the other lead on the solenoid lug where the cable connects and get a reading, you have a voltage drop from the battery terminal to the point where the load is pulled from - the starter solenoid.
IT's really pretty simple, and you can figure it out with a bit of patience.
 
Can I give you a hint that will help us to help you? Punctuation - it can totally change the meaning of what you "say" in written communication.
Just trying to be helpful, especially when not everyone read this has perfect eyes, or even the same "reading comprehension", in this example"
 
>>so i check the gauge by checking the fuse panel at some of the fuses it checks the same as the gauge with all of the powerstuff on with no stuff on car just running it checks 12.9 to 13.1 at the fuse box<<
 
Would be easier to read if it looked like this:
So i check the gauge by checking the fuse panel at some of the fuses, it checks the same as the gauge with all of the powerstuff on.
With no stuff on and the car just running it checks 12.9 to 13.1 at the fuse box.
 
Here's an example of a fuse panel in need - in this case, I totally replaced it as there was corrosion and oxidation at almost all connections due to some windshield leak of the past:
 
 
 
 
Back to Top
sasyamx View Drop Down
AMC Addicted
AMC Addicted


Joined: Jul/24/2007
Location: Kentucky
Status: Offline
Points: 525
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sasyamx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug/17/2013 at 11:16am
Thank for all the info , i am going to start with the alt wiring then start check the fuse panel , this sounds like its going to be so fun,keep my fingers cross the its something simple
Back to Top
sasyamx View Drop Down
AMC Addicted
AMC Addicted


Joined: Jul/24/2007
Location: Kentucky
Status: Offline
Points: 525
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sasyamx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug/17/2013 at 8:38pm
Well i started with checking the alt first to see if it match Unclijohn diagram , thanks, at first i thought i found the problem, when i loosen the nut off the back of the alt the connection  fell off then i started to unwrap the tape and found the wires just twisted up and tape up so i cut and my some new wires up and put it back together, still the same , now i am scared of the rest of the wiring if it's anything like this was .
Back to Top
uncljohn View Drop Down
AMC Addicted
AMC Addicted
Avatar

Joined: Jan/03/2013
Location: Peoria AZ
Status: Offline
Points: 5394
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote uncljohn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug/17/2013 at 10:36pm
I would say you have discovered the scary part here by finding twisted wires wrapped with tape. All kinds of bad connection problems can be related to that.
I suspect that there is a wire that has about that much resistance some where inside the wiring harness.  But then again, maybe not.
It has been so long since I looked at my 1970 wiring and alternator that sitting in the 2nd story of my house I have quite forgotten what is involved with the wiring of a 70 model AMC car.  Which means I have not open my 1970 manual either.
I know what it takes to make that alternator work  I have given you the wiring schematic, a simplified version but correct non-the less.
lA quick look at this schematic:
http://www.amccf.com/main.html
Which is on the Finnish AMC club web site and is for a 70 - 74 Hornet says there is a remote voltage regulator that supports the alternator.
If the Delco unit was installed correctly then the AMC alternator and the regulator and the wiring was removed so the existence of the wires do not confuse the next person looking at it.  And the new wiring was installed appropriately for function and clarity.
However if a hammer fisted mechanic twisted wires together and secured them with tape, all bets are off on how things will be found.  I would expect the worse.
Just for grins and giggles, the Finnish web site I have referred you to is full of goodies for reference material.  I have used that one for years.
Good luck

70 390 5spd Donohue
74 Hornet In restoration
76 Hornet, 5.7L Mercury Marine Power
80 Fuel Injected I6 Spirit
74 232 I-6, 4bbl, 270HL Isky Cam
Back to Top
sasyamx View Drop Down
AMC Addicted
AMC Addicted


Joined: Jul/24/2007
Location: Kentucky
Status: Offline
Points: 525
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sasyamx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug/18/2013 at 1:10am
Thanks for the link
Back to Top
vinny View Drop Down
Supporter of TheAMCForum
Supporter of TheAMCForum


Joined: Jan/05/2012
Location: Calgary
Status: Offline
Points: 2837
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vinny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug/18/2013 at 9:35am
I wired mine like the CJ charging circuit diagram and that is exactly as the GM car was wired that I got the alternator from. Terminal 2 to alternator output, output directly to battery + terminal and lamp wire to terminal 1.
I measure battery voltage at 14.1 whereas my trusty old Prestolite system used to deliver 14.6

I don't like opening the jacket on a wire to measure voltage but I guess sometimes you have to do it. On my car there are a number of factory splices from the solenoid feed to the fuse box.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.03
Copyright ©2001-2019 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.235 seconds.
All content of this site Copyright © 2018 TheAMCForum unless otherwise noted, all rights reserved.
PROBLEMS LOGGING IN or REGISTERING:
If you have problems logging in or registering, then please contact a Moderator or