TheAMCForum.com Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > The Garage > Body/Interior > HVAC
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Virgin r12 freon value?
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Click for TheAMCForum Rules / Click for PDF version of Forum Rules
Your donations help keep this valuable resource free and growing. Thank you.

Virgin r12 freon value?

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <123>
Author
Message
addic View Drop Down
AMC Nut
AMC Nut
Avatar

Joined: May/01/2008
Location: Kansas City
Status: Offline
Points: 370
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote addic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul/24/2017 at 2:46pm
I bought four cans for $100
73 401 Pierre Cardin X P1
73 401 Pierre Cardin X F3     70 X 390 4spd
69 X 401 6 spd
69 AMX 401 auto BSO
73 AMX 401 4speed pc
73 vette 427sb 5spd
73 vette convt.?
08 zx14
Back to Top
401MATCOUPE View Drop Down
AMC Addicted
AMC Addicted


Joined: May/20/2010
Location: Salisbury, MD
Status: Offline
Points: 5372
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 401MATCOUPE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul/24/2017 at 3:24pm
R-12 systems work best with R-12 in them, especially with low air flow through the Condenser.  R-134a converted AMC Systems just don't have the performance.....two years ago I did a 70 AMX Compressor Replacement and Expansion Valve change, which required the system to be completely emptied with my Snap On Recycler....changed parts, pulled and held 30 inches vacuum for 2 days and re-charged with R-12.  On a 80+ F Degree day, car static (no condenser airflow), I got the outlet air temp down to 36 deg F.  You will never see that with R-134a conversion or a new R-134a system.  I am very careful to have check valves on all the hoses and leak check every connections, not to lose any Freon to the atmosphere.
Ross K. Peterson
68X,GoPac,343,AT,52A(1stCar)
68X,GoPac,390,4sp,52A
69X,GoPac,390,4sp,64A
70X,GoPac,390,4sp,87A,8
70X,GoPac,390,4sp,BBO,8
70 Jav SST,390,AT,BSO
74MatX,401,AT,Prototype
74MatX,401,AT
Back to Top
vinny View Drop Down
Supporter of TheAMCForum
Supporter of TheAMCForum


Joined: Jan/05/2012
Location: Calgary
Status: Offline
Points: 2837
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vinny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul/24/2017 at 4:21pm
from https://en.wikipedia.org/wikiOzone_depletion

CFCs and related compounds in the atmosphere

CFCs were invented by Thomas Midgley, Jr. in the 1920s. They were used in air conditioning and cooling units, as aerosol spray propellants prior to the 1970s, and in the cleaning processes of delicate electronic equipment. They also occur as by-products of some chemical processes. No significant natural sources have ever been identified for these compounds—their presence in the atmosphere is due almost entirely to human manufacture. As mentioned above, when such ozone-depleting chemicals reach the stratosphere, they are dissociated by ultraviolet light to release chlorine atoms. The chlorine atoms act as a catalyst, and each can break down tens of thousands of ozone molecules before being removed from the stratosphere. Given the longevity of CFC molecules, recovery times are measured in decades. It is calculated that a CFC molecule takes an average of about five to seven years to go from the ground level up to the upper atmosphere, and it can stay there for about a century, destroying up to one hundred thousand ozone molecules during that time.[17][verification needed].




Edited by vinny - Jul/24/2017 at 4:28pm
Back to Top
6768rogues View Drop Down
AMC Addicted
AMC Addicted
Avatar

Joined: Jul/03/2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 6231
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 6768rogues Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul/24/2017 at 6:01pm
Originally posted by 401MATCOUPE 401MATCOUPE wrote:

R-12 systems work best with R-12 in them, especially with low air flow through the Condenser.  R-134a converted AMC Systems just don't have the performance.....two years ago I did a 70 AMX Compressor Replacement and Expansion Valve change, which required the system to be completely emptied with my Snap On Recycler....changed parts, pulled and held 30 inches vacuum for 2 days and re-charged with R-12.  On a 80+ F Degree day, car static (no condenser airflow), I got the outlet air temp down to 36 deg F.  You will never see that with R-134a conversion or a new R-134a system.  I am very careful to have check valves on all the hoses and leak check every connections, not to lose any Freon to the atmosphere.

Not necessarily so. I put a $500 aftermarket R-134A system on my 68 Rogue and it blows 34 degree air when it is 90 degrees outside, sitting still at idle in a parking lot. If it is aimed at the back window, the window will get so cold that condensation will form on the outside of it. You can see frost in the air coming off the evaporator. I have a similar system in my 67 Rogue, but the evaporator thermostat kicks off the compressor at about 39 degrees. For some reason I got an evaporator thermostat in one that is 34 degrees.
If you have a big condenser that can overpower the evaporator, the limiting factor will be the freeze protecting thermostat in the evaporator. If it lets the system get cold, you will need a winter coat. I always measure and sometimes do some cutting to get the biggest condenser possible wedged in there, with a good fan and shroud, and sealing the condenser to the radiator.
I have converted systems and had good results. But by converting, I mean putting in a new large parallel flow condenser, flushing the system, changing the valve or orfice tube, and replacing the dryer or accumulator. Simply replacing the refrigerant does produce mediocre results.


Edited by 6768rogues - Jul/24/2017 at 6:06pm
Content intended for mature audiences. If you experience nausea or diarrhea, stop reading and seek medical attention.

Located usually near Rochester, NY and sometimes central FL.
Back to Top
401MATCOUPE View Drop Down
AMC Addicted
AMC Addicted


Joined: May/20/2010
Location: Salisbury, MD
Status: Offline
Points: 5372
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 401MATCOUPE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul/24/2017 at 6:35pm
6768rogues....we are on the same page, as I see it.  You have done the right thing.  Please correct me if I am wrong here, but you have upgraded all the 1960's technology and are using parts and MADE for a R-134a system, which is the only way to go if you are putting a/c system in a custom install today. The problem has always been folks just want to "make it work" and I love to hear guys that do the research and make it better!    On my AMC work, 99% of the cars I do for other always want them dead stock, so that limits what can be done and you lose too much by a simple change to R-134a, right off the bat.  The original condensers have really poor sealing for sure.

Are you also using a electric fan???  That would be a huge help to on a high level conversion.
Ross K. Peterson
68X,GoPac,343,AT,52A(1stCar)
68X,GoPac,390,4sp,52A
69X,GoPac,390,4sp,64A
70X,GoPac,390,4sp,87A,8
70X,GoPac,390,4sp,BBO,8
70 Jav SST,390,AT,BSO
74MatX,401,AT,Prototype
74MatX,401,AT
Back to Top
6768rogues View Drop Down
AMC Addicted
AMC Addicted
Avatar

Joined: Jul/03/2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 6231
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 6768rogues Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul/24/2017 at 6:55pm
Originally posted by 401MATCOUPE 401MATCOUPE wrote:

6768rogues....we are on the same page, as I see it.  You have done the right thing.  Please correct me if I am wrong here, but you have upgraded all the 1960's technology and are using parts and MADE for a R-134a system, which is the only way to go if you are putting a/c system in a custom install today. The problem has always been folks just want to "make it work" and I love to hear guys that do the research and make it better!    On my AMC work, 99% of the cars I do for other always want them dead stock, so that limits what can be done and you lose too much by a simple change to R-134a, right off the bat.  The original condensers have really poor sealing for sure.

Are you also using a electric fan???  That would be a huge help to on a high level conversion.

I think we are in agreement. I do not have an electric fan, rather, I have a 7 blade factory fan with a home made shroud. The real limitation that I have seen converting old cars is trying to use an original serpentine condenser. I don't understand why, but parallel flow condensers work better with R-134A and they are not expensive. They are also not original for those wanting originality. Evaporators, on the other hand, are simply fan coils and seem to work with either refrigerant.
Sucking out R-12 and dumping in R-134A is not a recipe for success.
Content intended for mature audiences. If you experience nausea or diarrhea, stop reading and seek medical attention.

Located usually near Rochester, NY and sometimes central FL.
Back to Top
Mopar_guy View Drop Down
Supporter of TheAMCForum
Supporter of TheAMCForum
Avatar

Joined: Jun/07/2009
Location: Ohio
Status: Offline
Points: 4794
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mopar_guy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul/24/2017 at 8:20pm
WOW, 2 guys that know what they are talking about on A/C. Clap  Replacing R-12 and dumping in R-134A is not a recipe for success is so true but try telling that to people that "just want it fixed cheap". Ermm  That's why I quit doing A/C work expect for a few friends and myself.

Condensers, hoses and compressors are the big issue for converting IMO. Those tiny 134a molecules sure find a way to escape on the old systems.

"Hemilina" My 1973, 5.7 Hemi swapped Javelin
Back to Top
Mr_AMC View Drop Down
AMC Apprentice
AMC Apprentice
Avatar

Joined: Sep/27/2010
Location: Charleston, SC
Status: Offline
Points: 125
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mr_AMC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul/29/2018 at 8:34pm
On the subject of R-12 HURTING the environment.. Not enough of it on the entire planet to make any noticeable dent in the atmosphere..   THE WHOLE lie was a SCAM, because the patent ran out on the product..
PLUS, it is HEAVIER than air, it sinks.. it ISN"T going 7 miles up to affect ANYTHING..
Back to Top
Mr. Ed View Drop Down
Supporter of TheAMCForum
Supporter of TheAMCForum
Avatar

Joined: Nov/12/2010
Location: Sewell, NJ
Status: Offline
Points: 4916
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mr. Ed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul/30/2018 at 8:36am
Originally posted by 401MATCOUPE 401MATCOUPE wrote:

Pat...a automotive supply store can only sell to a licensed MACS Certified Automotive Mechanic.  The idea is that a licensed mechanic knows you have to use a reclaimer and other "rules" in air conditioning service.  Selling or trade privately is your business, not sure of legality.....I never have to worry for I have license and reclaimer. The EPA gets you when you buy Freon R-12 and don't have a registered machine in your name or at your shop.  Instant $25K fine........I know of a local shop that actually closed up because of it.  As far as price, it has come way down, 5 years ago it was hitting the $1000 mark for a 30lb container, but now is around $500-600.......but call your local auto parts store, they should give you price.....you just can't buy it without license.  Hope this helps.


A few years ago, I went into several auto parts stores to see if they would sell me R-12. I showed them my commercial license and they said they couldn't sell to me, only licensed auto mechanics. I asked them how much they had left and without exception, they all rolled their eyes or said "too much" to which I said that they needed to rethink their position on who they sell to. Fact of the matter is that it is cheaper to refit the system to R-134a than it is to buy a cylinder of R-12. When they started to phase out CFCs, a lot of guys got the idea to hoard R-12 and R-502 thinking that they could cash in. But sadly, these guys are now sitting on a lot of old refrigerant that nobody wants for the above reasons.

Later!
Mr. Ed
2014 Jeep Grand Cherokee Laredo "Gwendolyn."
1978 Concord Sport coupe "Mr. Black".
1982 Concord wagon. The Admiral. FOR SALE!
1976 Sportabout X, 304, auto, air. The Bronze Goddess

Back to Top
White70JavelinSST View Drop Down
Supporter of TheAMCForum
Supporter of TheAMCForum
Avatar

Joined: Aug/08/2012
Location: Minnesota
Status: Offline
Points: 4866
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote White70JavelinSST Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul/30/2018 at 9:14am
I am one of those guys who successfully converted a 70 Javelin R-12 system to R-134. I used a NOS 74 condenser, the 70 factory evap coil (with O ring fittings silver soldered on it), an R134 expansion valve, a Sanden style compressor, new drier/accumulator, reduced the length of all hoses by installing aluminum hard lines, and all new SS braided  hoses intended for AC use.

At first I was hesitant to place the setting on Desert Only, but if I want 36 degree air coming out of the ducts, I can put it on Desert Only and get that with the car idling and sitting in my 90 degree garage with the OH door open. The car has a seven bladed fan, no shroud.

I did a lot of research, it paid off.


Edited by White70JavelinSST - Jul/30/2018 at 9:17am
70 Javelin SST, second owner, purchased 1972
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <123>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.03
Copyright ©2001-2019 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.109 seconds.
All content of this site Copyright © 2018 TheAMCForum unless otherwise noted, all rights reserved.
PROBLEMS LOGGING IN or REGISTERING:
If you have problems logging in or registering, then please contact a Moderator or