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Use a carb on the Edelbrock Pro-Flo 2 intake

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote THE MENACE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/09/2016 at 1:14pm
Originally posted by jtsllc1 jtsllc1 wrote:



RPM Pro-Flo


A thinking man may question the benefits of a carbureted ProFlo vs. an AirGap on the street.

Your cash, your call.




The graph above was misprinted information from our 2013 catalog. Yes 3 years ago! That graph was corrected in the 2014 catalog. The correct numbers are 442 HP and 470 Ft. Lb.

Dennis
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slate Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/09/2016 at 1:25pm
^Well there you go, straight from the source.

Steve
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Red Devil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/09/2016 at 1:35pm
Dennis, that chart on the Pro-Flo came straight from the current website link (click on the "Dyno chart" icon beside the 35310). It still shows the old numbers. May be good to get your web guys to update.

http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive/mc/efi/pf2-amc.shtml

Also, can you confirm that both the RPM AirGap and ProFlo tests are with the same engine? Using your numbers, looks like ProFlo has a 9 hp gain and 19 lbf.ft. loss compared to the RPM AirGap

Thanks,RD.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slate Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/09/2016 at 2:16pm
^ Good point. Is it the graph and the numbers or just the numbers. On the graph depicted the peak torque is slightly above the halfway point between 450 and 500 which suggest the 478 listed. The graph for hp shows a line that is right around 440-ish which clearly deviates from the 395 listed.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slate Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/09/2016 at 2:24pm
Originally posted by jcisworthy jcisworthy wrote:

That is what happens when you run too small CSA on an engine, less rpm and power. 

The AMC iron heads fully ported are around the CSA of an Edelbrock out of the box and have excellent velocities if done right. I am not sure why there is such a worry about running them on the street ported with larger valves. 

It's all about the intake side not so much the exhaust. Bolt a power adder on any engine and what happens; more power with nothing done to the exhaust. It is the same with cylinder heads. Make them move more air on the intakes and the power goes up. All that is needed on the exhaust is something decent which the dogleg is ok but not the legend many AMC fans think it is and that's why the billet manifolds may make a difference on them, it is a crutch to an ok shape. 

The torker intake is very responsive on a combination done right and tuned right and is not too big for most applications. 

Not trying to start trouble but there is no magic in a small runner intake with exhaust manifolds no matter how nice they are shaped. 

The last three 401's I built made more hp than the one talked about with a ported torker, Doug's 1 7/8" headers and smaller flat tappet cams that the Comp cam used here??

If the exhaust isn't important then the last three 401's you built with 1&5/8ths headers should do just as well. Also, do you have the numbers across the range for any of them?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jtsllc1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/09/2016 at 2:31pm
Dennis was faster then "Sin Bad"Thumbs Up

O.K. now we have things moving... 

The Air Gap is a good manifold... Chris used his credit card on Monday and by Friday he had an Air Gap, Eddy heads, Holley 700 DP, 280 Comp Cam and was running 12.20 with 3:15 gears....

I.M.O. the air gap is just a modern smaller runner R4B using velocity to its advantage.
The Pro Flow/4150 is a modern air gap torker with small runners taking advantage of the velocity. A manifold with small runners and equal flow to a larger runner should produce more power...

Now where Eddy nailed it is their intake matches the flow of their heads at .500 lift. So a .550 lift cam would make the combo shine. Also if Eddy were to have tested with 1 5/8 Headers they would have increased their test results in both Power and Torque... The 1 3/4 is not going to turn on until about 5800 RPM.... But like the sales Rep just saw the intake allowed the power to continue past 6200... This is a good indication that we have a close match between exhaust and intake....

Well I guess it is up to the AMC people like Dennis says if you want a bolt on 500 HP street package you might want to pre order or email Eddy about a EFI/4150..... 

Another motor is being built with the EDDY heads and EFI/4150 10.5 to 1.... To simulate a 500 + bolt on package order with a credit card on Monday and be done by Friday....

FYI driving a car on the street with that much power on the low end can be a little over whelming ... There is no problem getting a reckless driving ticket just taking it easy below 3000 RPM... But perfect for drifting...LOL...




Edited by jtsllc1 - Feb/09/2016 at 4:59pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slate Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/09/2016 at 3:09pm
^Not being mentioned, except when discussing hood clearance, guess I was wrong about that one, is that cross-sectional port area is just one consideration. Length of runners and plenum size/shape, as well as the angle of the intake path are too. And the velocity that has been discussed, is.

 If you can stuff a smaller volume through in a shorter time frame that isn't too much smaller, then per unit of time you'll have the same or better volume than a slower moving, larger volume gas through the port and that is reflected by the CFM through the port. There's a reason why it's measured per unit of time.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jtsllc1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/09/2016 at 3:48pm
Originally posted by jcisworthy jcisworthy wrote:

That is what happens when you run too small CSA on an engine, less rpm and power. 

The AMC iron heads fully ported are around the CSA of an Edelbrock out of the box and have excellent velocities if done right. I am not sure why there is such a worry about running them on the street ported with larger valves. 

It's all about the intake side not so much the exhaust. Bolt a power adder on any engine and what happens; more power with nothing done to the exhaust. It is the same with cylinder heads. Make them move more air on the intakes and the power goes up. All that is needed on the exhaust is something decent which the dogleg is ok but not the legend many AMC fans think it is and that's why the billet manifolds may make a difference on them, it is a crutch to an ok shape. 

The torker intake is very responsive on a combination done right and tuned right and is not too big for most applications. 

Not trying to start trouble but there is no magic in a small runner intake with exhaust manifolds no matter how nice they are shaped. 

The last three 401's I built made more hp than the one talked about with a ported torker, Doug's 1 7/8" headers and smaller flat tappet cams that the Comp cam used here??

I like your builds ...I actually bought one of your spec cams but it is out of the lift range for EDDY heads and my iron heads... That is the no fly zone  for EDDY's parameters....

You asked me what my goal was before you made your builds and I told you there should be no problem building a 500 HP pump gas motor with a hydraulic cam around .550 lift. As it turns out Eddy has all the key bolt on ready components. After the unexpected gain with the EFI/4150 Eddy only has to complete one change to the intake and they are done... As far as HP I would suspect the Eddy combo is going to make more power then I will end up with when I dyno next with iron heads  only flowing 257 CFM @ .500 and 2.055 valves ..... Especially after the new cam is ground for the application for 1.6....

I.M.O. it should not take much to get substantial HP from an AMC... We now wonder how the EFI /4150 would perform on a stock set of heads.... The objective is to put the least in as possible to get the most gain... As far as Eddy I would definitely be interested in providing a bolt on 500 HP package at the crank... This raises the bar.... Now my bar is 500 RWHP so right now I'm at around 440 RWHP eliminating the alt and water pump and I have one more change to make along with a tune.... So we will be between 440 RWHP and 500 RWHP... Now we will see how accurate Dugan is... A 10 percent gain is allot... and according to Ed Zacconni we are mathematically at MAX HP now for the combo. But from previous dyno runs I can see the possibility of the HP climbing like it did with the 1 3/4 above  5800... Do we gain across the whole power range and then recapture the loss after 5800 RPM who knows until we test...

The EFI/4150 changed the whole ball game..... This is a good thing for AMC .... It gives AMC the little boost it needs to come closer to par with other motor makes as in naturally boosted.. It would be nice to out produce a stroked Ford 406... with an AMC 406...

So we shall see how close we come...... "Sin Bad " can make the Dyno pulls and run the car at the track if he wants.....

I do not want to start trouble so Hopefully things remain calm.......... Worse case scenario I'm cool as long as I get one more EFI intake.... 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote THE MENACE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/10/2016 at 12:23pm
Originally posted by Red Devil Red Devil wrote:

Dennis, that chart on the Pro-Flo came straight from the current website link (click on the "Dyno chart" icon beside the 35310). It still shows the old numbers. May be good to get your web guys to update.

http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive/mc/efi/pf2-amc.shtml

Thanks,RD.


Try the link now! You may need to clear your browser for the update!

Dennis
Former Owner of:
The Craig Breedlove "AERO AMX"

Still Owner:
SS/AMX #9 replica (THE BIG MENACE)
70 AMX 416, EFI, Nash 5 speed   
70 Javelin 401, 727 (Wife's)
72 Gremlin Autocross Project.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jtsllc1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/11/2016 at 12:12am
Originally posted by Slate Slate wrote:

^Not being mentioned, except when discussing hood clearance, guess I was wrong about that one, is that cross-sectional port area is just one consideration. Length of runners and plenum size/shape, as well as the angle of the intake path are too. And the velocity that has been discussed, is.

 If you can stuff a smaller volume through in a shorter time frame that isn't too much smaller, then per unit of time you'll have the same or better volume than a slower moving, larger volume gas through the port and that is reflected by the CFM through the port. There's a reason why it's measured per unit of time.

Steve

I hope this helps... It did for me.... I just sum it up as Naturally Aspirated Boosting ... I think mechanically boosting takes the fun out... Eddy made this possible and the AMC motor responds.... I like the part where they cover intake manifolds and exhaust manifolds... Enjoy!!!!

 Generally speaking an engine will respond better to a small efficient port than a larger "normal" port with the same flow, so smoothing and blending without hogging is the best path to power. Usually the runner sizes are not too far off what would be appropriate but the execution can leave a lot to be desired, especially where the runners join the plenum.

_________________________________________________________________________________________

The smaller the cross-sectional area of the runner, the higher the pressure changes on resonance for a given airflow. This aspect of Helmholtz resonance reproduces one result of the Venturi effect. When the piston accelerates downwards, the pressure at the output of the intake runner is reduced. This low pressure pulse runs to the input end, where it is converted into an over-pressure pulse. This pulse travels back through the runner and rams air through the valve. The valve then closes.

To harness the full power of the Helmholtz resonance effect, the opening of the intake valve must be timed correctly, otherwise the pulse could have a negative effect. This poses a very difficult problem for engines, since valve timing is dynamic and based on engine speed, whereas the pulse timing is static and dependent on the length of the intake runner and the speed of sound. The traditional solution has been to tune the length of the intake runner for a specific engine speed where maximum performance is desired. However, modern technology has given rise to dynamic intake geometry.

As a result of "resonance tuning", some naturally aspirated intake systems operate at a volumetric efficiency above 100%: the air pressure in the combustion chamber before the compression stroke is greater than the atmospheric pressure. In combination with this intake manifold design feature, the exhaust manifold design, as well as the exhaust valve opening time can be so calibrated as to achieve greater evacuation of the cylinder. The exhaust manifolds achieve a vacuum in the cylinder just before the piston reaches top dead center.The opening inlet valve can then at typical compression ratios—fill 10% of the cylinder before beginning downward travel. Instead of achieving higher pressure in the cylinder, the inlet valve can stay open after the piston reaches bottom dead center while the air still flows in.

______________________________________________________________________________

 A larger intake runner volume allows more air and fuel to flow through it. However, the larger "tunnel" will slow the velocity of gases moving through it. Smaller intake runners would speed up the flow of gases through the cylinder head and increase throttle response and torque. If you want the magic combination: A head with good flow and air velocity would give you the best of both worlds.

The bigger your engine displacement, the larger your cylinder head intake runners generally need to be. The bigger your intake runners are, the higher the power band is pushed. If you want to build power for the street, huge intake runners will build big horsepower at NON-streetable RPMs. You're better off with smaller intake runners which help build power at lower RPM's.


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