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UPDATE Rebuild first startup questions |
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tomj
AMC Addicted Joined: Jan/27/2010 Location: earth Status: Offline Points: 7544 |
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the 232 in my '63 Classic was geared such that 65 mph was 2800 rpm. it was a careful but stock rebuild, the one fancy thing flat-top pistons (i think 287 v8? too long ago to remember)... i too thought it was a lot of rpm, then, but it ran 21 years just fine. that's not a problem itself i think.
"as much advance as it will take" -- i apologize if it sounded like i think you should push this to the hairy edge. most of us don't have dynos, and so we time with instruments we have, and yes, by ear. i can only assume we're all in the same boat here. "maximum advance" til it pings then back it off a degree or two past where it doesn't. watch plugs often-ish on new-ish engines. if there is a better way i honestly would love to hear suggestions. |
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1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto
1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5 http://www.ramblerLore.com |
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macdude443
AMC Apprentice Joined: Apr/09/2014 Location: Pittsburgh PA Status: Offline Points: 222 |
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This is what I've been reading. Seems to be where the motor is happiest. By ear and backed a few degrees from audible detonation is the best a lot of us can do. I'd be all ears for a more technical approach, too. |
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1982 Eagle SX/4
1986 Eagle Wagon 1985 Jeep Grand Wagoneer |
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billd
Moderator Group Forum Administrator Joined: Jun/27/2007 Location: Iowa Status: Offline Points: 30894 |
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So true - the timing specs are for a stock engine with stock cam and stock compression because the factory determined (NOT ACCOUNTING FOR EMISSIONS stuff, etc. - all else being equal) that their engine as produced did best at that timing setting.
If you changed cam, compression and so on, you change the burn rate and change where your timing needs to be for best output at given speeds. (if you've watched engines with knock sensors it's possible you've seen them react when you were not yet able to detect an audible "ping" ........... just as a "be aware" thing that audible ping may be beyond detonation already.) You can also set it by vacuum gauge........... And watch that your dampener ring hasn't slipped - a few folks have been baffled by timing "marks" that were way outside reasonable settings and yet saw no problems - because it has slipped and was indicating totally false readings. It may look like it's at a wild number, but is it REALLY, or has that ring slipped. I have one on the trailer to take to scrap because of that very issue. Piston at known TDC and it indicated several degrees of timing already. OK, that one goes to the trash. |
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FSJunkie
AMC Addicted Joined: Jan/09/2011 Location: Flagstaff, AZ Status: Offline Points: 4742 |
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There is a graph of ignition timing over engine RPM in the SAE paper for the 1971 revisions of the AMC I6. There were two graphs, one for the pre-1971 engine and one for the post-1971 engine, since they had different combustion champers. There are three curves on each graph, and this is the order they are from highest to lowest:
The "trace detonation curve" was quite a bit more advanced than the "mean best torque" curve. In most places, it was about 5 degrees advanced. This means if you advance your timing to the point of detonation, you are already significantly advanced past the timing that would give you maximum power. The "2% loss retarded" curve was a couple degrees retarded from the "MBT" curve, but not much. It was 2-3 degrees retarded in most places along the curve. The factory timing specifications follow this curve VERY CLOSELY for just about every year of factory timing specifications I looked at in my collection of service manuals, including through smog years where people often falsely claim that ignition timing was retarded. The factory timing specs follow the 2% loss curve to give the engine some tolerance for operating in harsh conditions of heat and/or low humidity without experiencing detonation. You give up 2-3 horsepower for a safety buffer zone. This is all for the stock engine though. A modified engine has completely different needs. But I thought this was good information to put out there so people know where the factory timing recommendations come from.
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1955 Packard
1966 Marlin 1972 Wagoneer 1973 Ambassador 1977 Hornet 1982 Concord D/L 1984 Eagle Limited |
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tomj
AMC Addicted Joined: Jan/27/2010 Location: earth Status: Offline Points: 7544 |
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FSjunkie, thanks! that's great information. the relationship of the three curves puts things into perspective too. if i read your summary right, there's roughly (for visualization purposes) a 7-degree knee, from 2%-loss to trace-deto.
if the conservative curve is (again roughly) 2% down from peak torque, that's a good rule of thumb to have. it makes obvious sense that the manufacturers would have to balance power out vs. reliability (cost to repair and cost to reputation), and are probably pretty conservative. is that paper available for viewing anywhere? or those tables? can you post the actual title of the document?
Edited by tomj - Jul/11/2017 at 7:29pm |
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1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto
1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5 http://www.ramblerLore.com |
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macdude443
AMC Apprentice Joined: Apr/09/2014 Location: Pittsburgh PA Status: Offline Points: 222 |
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I would LOVE to see that document!
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1982 Eagle SX/4
1986 Eagle Wagon 1985 Jeep Grand Wagoneer |
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FSJunkie
AMC Addicted Joined: Jan/09/2011 Location: Flagstaff, AZ Status: Offline Points: 4742 |
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It's an SAE technical paper titled, Emission Control by Engine Design and Development, written by AMC engineers D. Hittler and L. Hamkins in 1968 about the redesign of the AMC inline six to pass stricter emissions standards. This is a link to the paper on the SAE website. They have a preview of the first five pages available, but to see the rest you must purchase the paper. I cannot post my copy because I'd get in trouble with the SAE's copyright laws. They are very strict about that. http://papers.sae.org/680110/ This article is also in a book published by the SAE titled, 100 Years of Engine Developments. It's a comprehensive book of 100 SAE papers written by the automotive engineers themselves about significant developments in engine design. It's a good book, I highly recommend it. You can buy it directly from the SAE here: http://books.sae.org/pt-115/ I also recommend searching the SAE website for other SAE papers about AMC engines and buying them. They have papers for just about every AMC engine written in first person by the engineers themselves. If you are somebody like me who likes to research and find out the facts for themselves rather than trust the opinions and advice of others, I recommend reading SAE papers related to topics you are interested in. You will be surprised how often something in the paper contradicts the common belief on something.
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1955 Packard
1966 Marlin 1972 Wagoneer 1973 Ambassador 1977 Hornet 1982 Concord D/L 1984 Eagle Limited |
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billd
Moderator Group Forum Administrator Joined: Jun/27/2007 Location: Iowa Status: Offline Points: 30894 |
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My paraphrasing of the break-in process was off a bit.
Perfect Circle actually states to do the acceleration thing 10 times, stating no further break-in is needed but to avoid sustained high-speed driving for the first 100 miles. Run from 30 to 50-55 full throttle (without lugging, and if an automatic, prevent kick-down or downshift) ten times in succession. The idea is that the more extreme combustion pressures of that sort of load force the rings against the cylinder walls and wear off the high spots, breaking things in. People have very very very old-skool ideas on break-in sometimes such as it takes wearing off the machine marks, or that it takes thousands of miles, etc. That's not the case. The ring machine marks should still show after many thousands of miles and sometimes the cylinder hone marks will show up to almost 100,000 miles in a well-maintained engine. Further wear is more extreme. So after cam break-in (which is mentioned only in some places....... some don't even mention it as necessary) do the ring thing and you are done. The timing in the SAE papers aligns with what was said about the ideal angle for peak combustion pressure - it's science and engineering. Those papers don't touch the full depth - I agree those interested in the WHY they do what they do - or SHOULD do what should be done - would enjoy reading what the engineers had to go through to make our beloved engines as strong and reliable as they are. I still go back to my college books now and then, there's so much in them and it's hard to retain it all if one doesn't use it constantly. I have two shelves dedicated to the college books, and all the notes I took over those years. I have the materials I got from the Ford and GM continuing education classes I took later as well as the Sun information on carburetion, etc. |
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FSJunkie
AMC Addicted Joined: Jan/09/2011 Location: Flagstaff, AZ Status: Offline Points: 4742 |
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I also make sure to take my engine up to redline at least once during the first couple hundred miles while the rings are working in. My reasoning is that the connecting rods will stretch just a little bit at high RPM and the piston rings will reach just a little bit higher in the cylinder. I wouldn't want a ridge of unworn (un broken-in) cylinder wall up at the top of the cylinder that the piston rings then slam into several years later when I take it to redline for the first time passing a truck. I think it's important for the engine to see every RPM during the break-in that it will reasonably see for the rest of its life. Funny thing about seeing honing marks in the cylinders: I've disassembled original (never rebuilt) AMC engines at 100,000 miles and seen some faint honing marks still. However, I pulled the head off my 232 last year only 15,000 miles after I rebuilt it and there are basically NO honing marks. I felt devastated and wanted to know why. I think it's because I told the machine shop that did my honing that I was using moly-filled piston rings, which require a finer honing pattern. I think they did a very fine plateau hone and that's why it was wiped out so soon. I think AMC did a pretty rough honing even though they also used moly top rings. If I am correct, then nothing is wrong. It runs great with excellent piston ring sealing, so its obviously fine, but it makes me wonder...
Edited by FSJunkie - Jul/12/2017 at 11:08pm |
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1955 Packard
1966 Marlin 1972 Wagoneer 1973 Ambassador 1977 Hornet 1982 Concord D/L 1984 Eagle Limited |
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billd
Moderator Group Forum Administrator Joined: Jun/27/2007 Location: Iowa Status: Offline Points: 30894 |
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Dana Corp said the break-in was the same for all ring materials, cast or otherwise.
So many shops simply hone and don't know why or follow the proper procedures for cleaning, and cross-hatch angle, etc. I pulled apart a Ford out of a pickup that had an in-box camper on it, the engine was just shy of 100,000 miles and it still had hone marks easy to see. I have pulled apart engines with 30,000 on them and found no marks at all save for above ring travel or down low in the cylinder. There are many reasons - oiling, type of driving, heat, and more. AMC did what should have been done - the correct cross-hatch angle, their finish was fine and not too course. Check with the ENGINEERS and those who MAKE the rings.......... You won't gain power each time you flex the rings.......... you may be blowing carbon out or removing some deposits, whatever, but it's not physically or mechanically doing anything beyond that initial break-in prescribed by Dana, Hastings and others. Their labs have done more tests than the experience of all forum members combined, and they make the products we use and have to stand behind them. If they were wrong, they'd be out of business. You also aren't doing anything with the high revs that early in engine life because there's no wear vs. unworn to catch. In fact if there's anything there at all in the first thousand miles, you have issues. It may be a "feel good" thing, but it isn't helping or saving anything because there's no ridge or high anything to catch. That happens much later. You could go a thousand miles, pull it apart, and not have a thing for a ring to catch on. There simply isn't that sort of wear NORMALLY. If there is, there's trouble. Be careful what you hear or read on honing and rings, too. I take my advice from those who MAKE the rings and test them scientifically over many thousands of hours...... not "this has been my success". the pattern is more important than the "roughness" regardless of the ring. If the pattern is too steep you lose oil and have excessive wear - likely in your case. If it's too flat the rings will hydroplane, not break in well and you'll have oil consumption. That's the science and facts of the matter from the makers and those who TRAIN top technicians. Here is a quote from Hastings (if ya heard of them, they make piston rings) >Substantial controversy exists on the correct cylinder roughness for proper seating of piston rings, whether chrome, moly, or plain cast iron. It has been our experience that the use of 220-280 grit stones and achieving proper cross hatch angle produces a finish compatible to all three types of the above rings.< And here is what "enginebuildermag" says - very similar, in the end these outfits often end up saying you can hone the same for all rings if you follow modern methods, correct angle, reversing the hone in the final steps, plateau finish, etc. And gee, they are also saying "after a couple of hours things are broken in." >According to one piston ring manufacturer, once the rings have seated, wear virtually ceases because the rings are now supported by that thin oil film and no longer make physical contact with the cylinder wall. A plateaued bore surface will stabilize after about two hours of running. In other words, the rings will seat very quickly and experience almost no further wear. A more conventional surface finish, by comparison, may take anywhere from three to 12 hours to seat in depending on the grade of stones used. A bore finish honed with #280 grit stones will seat faster than one finished with #220 stones.< |
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