TheAMCForum.com Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > The Garage > AMC 6 Cylinder Engine Repair and Modifications
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - UPDATE Rebuild first startup questions
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Click for TheAMCForum Rules / Click for PDF version of Forum Rules
Your donations help keep this valuable resource free and growing. Thank you.

UPDATE Rebuild first startup questions

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234>
Author
Message
pacerman View Drop Down
Supporter of TheAMCForum
Supporter of TheAMCForum


Joined: Jul/03/2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 9061
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pacerman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/19/2017 at 4:52pm
Drive it. Joe
Happiness is making something out of nothing.
Back to Top
amcenthusiast View Drop Down
AMC Addicted
AMC Addicted
Avatar

Joined: Jul/02/2012
Location: SW Atlanta GA
Status: Offline
Points: 1778
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote amcenthusiast Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/19/2017 at 7:17pm
It's your baby now! -Glad to hear you got it figured out.

-pretty sure Jeep-Eagle sponsored US Olympic team but couldn't find any info on it...

...just passing the torch to you!


Edited by amcenthusiast - Jun/19/2017 at 7:26pm
443 XRV8 Gremlin YouTube video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?reload=9&v=2DmFOKRuzUc
XRV8 Race Parts website: http://amcramblermarlin.1colony.com/
Back to Top
FSJunkie View Drop Down
AMC Addicted
AMC Addicted
Avatar

Joined: Jan/09/2011
Location: Flagstaff, AZ
Status: Offline
Points: 4742
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FSJunkie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/19/2017 at 9:56pm
The oil will have a metallic look to it for the next 3000-6000 miles. It'll look like gray metallic paint. 

Normal. 
1955 Packard
1966 Marlin
1972 Wagoneer
1973 Ambassador
1977 Hornet
1982 Concord D/L
1984 Eagle Limited
Back to Top
tomj View Drop Down
AMC Addicted
AMC Addicted
Avatar

Joined: Jan/27/2010
Location: earth
Status: Offline
Points: 7555
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tomj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun/20/2017 at 12:18am
worry early and often (you did) now drive it! it will "loosen up" over the next few K miles and get faskter and smoother. i'd take it sort-of easy for 1000 miles, rev it but not excessive, etc and of course watch for weirdness (leaks, whatever) but chances are you're at the 95% point and all you gotta do is tune it.

spark advance makes a huge difference on waste heat staying in the engine. as long as it's not pinging all the advance you can give it is best.
1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto
1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5
http://www.ramblerLore.com

Back to Top
macdude443 View Drop Down
AMC Apprentice
AMC Apprentice
Avatar

Joined: Apr/09/2014
Location: Pittsburgh PA
Status: Offline
Points: 222
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote macdude443 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul/10/2017 at 9:52am
Some more updates on this project.  We're at the 200 mile mark.  I changed the oil again and this time put in Brad Penn high zinc oil.  Power is great.  The base timing is a lot higher than I thought it would be.  The old motor ran at 9* BTDC.  This one is happiest at 20* BTDC, 12* centrifugal and 20* vac advance at 15".  Old motor wouldn't even hear of anything like that, without detonation.  This new one has plenty of nice power.  Night and day compared to the original motor.

There are two things I've notice that concern me a little.  Due to the 3.08 gearing and the 3 speed auto, at 60-65 on the highway, the engine is turning pretty quickly.  Up around 2800 RPM I notice the engine makes a bit of a pulsing harmonic noise.  I can't feel any vibration at all.  Possibly the balancer or flexplate, but I'm not sure it's going to hurt anything.  Somehow as I did my research on this build I missed the importance of crankshaft balancing.  I did not have that performed.  However a lot says that's more of a performance/racing guideline and a motor turning a max of 3000 RPM (in my application) shouldn't really require a perfect balance during a rebuild.  I sure hope that's the case.  All of the parts used in this came out of the same block, only the head was changed.  No new pistons, rods or crank.

The second is an interesting sort of metallic popping sound.  It's very faint, but it's been there for all of these miles with no change.  I can't tell if it's at crank or cam speed.  It appears in park and in drive right around 1000 RPM and continues on up with engine speed but doesn't get any louder.  Doesn't seem to be load dependent, doesn't change at all under deceleration.  It also isn't timing or fuel mixture related.  I have a few other minor exhaust leaks so I can't rule out an exhaust leak on one cylinder.  Could also be the mechanical fuel pump.  Engine temperature has no effect on it.  May just be a quirk of the motor?  When I park the car I can hear it, I jump out and stick my head under the hood and I can't.  Rev it up, can't hear it up front, but I can hear it from the driver's seat.  It's a gremlin for sure.  I can't figure how to troubleshoot something I can't replicate with the hood up.


Edited by macdude443 - Jul/10/2017 at 9:56am
1982 Eagle SX/4
1986 Eagle Wagon
1985 Jeep Grand Wagoneer
Back to Top
billd View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group

Forum Administrator

Joined: Jun/27/2007
Location: Iowa
Status: Offline
Points: 30894
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote billd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul/10/2017 at 2:26pm
Once you do the "cam break-in" thing, take the car out and go to an open UNBUSY highway. 
If it's a stick, keep it in as high a gear as you can without lugging it and do full-throttle accel to about 50-55 mph, then back down to about 15 or 20, then full throttle to about 50-55 again, then back down, etc. 
Do this 3 or 4 times. 
Break-in is now done. 

Think I'm kidding? That's from DANA Corporation - they were the makers of Perfect Circle piston rings. That is what was taught in engine building in high school and college. (I may have their exact mph off by a little bit, but that's very close to what the factory books said. 
You should not see anything in the oil beyond perhaps a bit more grey than usual in the first change. 
for one thing, the filter should catch pretty much anything, and for another, what is there to be in the oil? Certainly nothing at all from the bearings, not even a tad, nothing from the cam and lifters - there'd better not be anything silvery, flecks, etc. and as far as the rings and cylinders, you should see almost nothing there, too. Where you see gray or silver in any quantity beyond the first change is where the hone job was incorrect for the type and material of rings used. 
In the case of the 4.0 shown below, it uses no oil between changes (stays pretty much at the full mark), the first oil change was a tad more dirty than subsequent changes but there was never any silver or gray look at all, ever. The oil looked normal every change after the first (and even the first wasn't much beyond normal)
Think of it - factory engines will often display factory hone marks in the cylinders tens of thousands of miles down the road. The rings can't wear so much they leave debris in the oil or there'd be nothing left of them after a while. 
Engines like a 390, etc.  - the old school with carburetors and no computer, will have dirtier oil due to the dirtier combustion but later engines shouldn't even have that upon first oil change.  And if Perfect Circle says after that highway break-in it's done, it's broken in, you'd better not see anything in the oil.
They WILL loosen up with time - I've found most will need about 10K miles to be truly where they are going to run for the next tens of thousands - but you won't see it visibly in the oil or elsewhere. 

You can literally get the timing to within a degree of perfect before you even start it. Use a continuity tester across the points - you'll need to disconnect the distributor from the coil.
Run the crank shaft until the timing marks line up to where your engine should be - if it says 6 degrees BTDC then line the mark up with 6 degrees. 
Rotate the distributor body in the direction of timing RETARD so the points are closed and your tester indicates continuity.
Now rotate the distributor body in the direction of timing advance until the tester JUST STOPS, BARELY, JUST stops. (light goes out, buzzer stops buzzing, etc.)
Snug the distributor down to specs. Your timing is now set and should be spot on - or if it's off, by hardly a degree at most. 

You don't need any fancy tool to prime the oil pump - on an AMC  a speed handle and screwdriver bit will do and you can whip that thing up to 50 PSI or better depending on your arms. You can actually make oil squirt from the rockers. No drill, no fancy expensive special tool. A speed handle and screwdriver bit. 

I had to learn a few tricks as in order to force me to go to my potential, my auto instructor was a bit ornery and for my semester finals while the others worked in teams with the scope, timing light, tach/dwell meter and the latest in tools and equipment of the time, I had to work with basic hand tools - not even a feeler gauge. My engine still had to check out in specs to pass. I did. Dwell, timing, etc., all were in specs. (and went on to set records at the state level Plymouth Troubleshooting Contest)
After all of these years, I know why he and my later college profs were so hard on me....... 

In the picture below, the blue hose is the mechanical oil gauge I use, you can see the speed handle, and there's oil flowing from every rocker arm...........
The engines start quickly, I don't have to worry about timing, etc. and they have oil pressure right away. (of course the 4.0 has no timing worries anyway - haha)

Back to Top
billd View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group

Forum Administrator

Joined: Jun/27/2007
Location: Iowa
Status: Offline
Points: 30894
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote billd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul/10/2017 at 2:35pm
Originally posted by tomj tomj wrote:

worry early and often (you did) now drive it! it will "loosen up" over the next few K miles and get faskter and smoother. i'd take it sort-of easy for 1000 miles, rev it but not excessive, etc and of course watch for weirdness (leaks, whatever) but chances are you're at the 95% point and all you gotta do is tune it.

spark advance makes a huge difference on waste heat staying in the engine. as long as it's not pinging all the advance you can give it is best.


Sorry, I beg to differ - detonation cannot always be HEARD by the human ear. it's the result of a sonic "boom" due to colliding flame fronts - and it's made audible by the resonance of the block, etc.
You can destroy an engine due to detonation, etc. with no ping sound. 
Timing beyond having the peak combustion pressures occur at about 14 ATDC is a HP robber. 
The mechanical advantage in a typical engine is most at about 14 degrees of crank rotation after top dead center. It's the old lever, fulcrum thing. If peak pressure occurs sooner it's lost when you have the most advantage, it it happens later, same thing - plus you can end up having pressure pushing down as the piston wants to come up for exhaust. 
"All the timing it can handle without ping" can be costly. Do whatever to your own, but that's a risk anyone with engine design experience and training will argue with.

You want to time it so that in YOUR engine, with YOUR burn rate, YOUR compression, etc. you hit the most or peak combustion pressure at 14 degrees ATDC (some say 16 so how about we call it 14-16??)
That is when that combustion force will do the most work and have the most LEVERAGE against the crankshaft. Depending on engine SPEED, because it takes TIME to BURN the mixture, it ain't an explosion, it's a controlled BURN, or it had better be, burning takes time so to hit that 14 degrees if the engine is going FASTER, you have to start the burning sooner. If the engine is running slowly, you need to start the burn later. 
If you end up with detonation - you blow the barrier layer away from the piston with the forces of the colliding flame fronts and you melt aluminum. the normal combustion can be above the melting point of aluminum pistons. There's an unburned layer of mixture that protects the piston top - blow that away and the combustion temperatures are now exposed directly to the piston. 

I've rebuilt engines damaged and there was never a complaint of ping........ in fact I own one. 
Back to Top
FSJunkie View Drop Down
AMC Addicted
AMC Addicted
Avatar

Joined: Jan/09/2011
Location: Flagstaff, AZ
Status: Offline
Points: 4742
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FSJunkie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul/10/2017 at 3:14pm
It will take 6000 miles or more to really season in. It'll run better and better every day. Cooler, more power, quieter, etc. 

65 MPH with 3.08 gears is nothing. I drive 75 MPH all day long with 3.55's. These old engine have no problem what so ever turning 3500 RPM all day long if the cooling system is capable of keeping the temperatures down. However, I'd keep it under 70 MPH for the first few thousand miles until the engine loosens up more. My 232 took a while before it wanted to run high speeds but after a while it loosened up and loved it.

I'd stick to the factory timing an advance specifications if I were you. The AMC engineers knew what they were doing when they came up with the timing specs for that engine, and it had less to do with emissions than you probably think. 

The sixes tend to idle in gear or park with a light knock at the rear of the engine where it bolts to the transmission. You can hear it down by the starter. Don't worry, nothing is wrong with your engine. It'll run for 200,000 miles like that. It's just something they do. 

Don't worry about not having your engine balanced. Inline sixes don't care what their pistons and connecting rods weigh so long as they all weigh the same. The new pistons you bought were a matched set that all weighed the same, so that's all taken care of. The rods were matched at the factory so no change there. The crankshaft was spin balanced on its own at the factory and even if you had the crankshaft machined, the material removed from each journal cancels out the rest. Inline sixes basically balance themselves. 

Some cars have little harmonic vibrations at certain speeds even if nothing is wrong with them. 
1955 Packard
1966 Marlin
1972 Wagoneer
1973 Ambassador
1977 Hornet
1982 Concord D/L
1984 Eagle Limited
Back to Top
macdude443 View Drop Down
AMC Apprentice
AMC Apprentice
Avatar

Joined: Apr/09/2014
Location: Pittsburgh PA
Status: Offline
Points: 222
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote macdude443 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul/10/2017 at 3:38pm
I can time the car with the light, like I had it, at 9*, however it drives like a slug.  That was where the original motor was happiest though.  Setting static in your method doesn't help me much, this is in a 1986 Eagle.  No points.  I'm also past that stage, as well as the oil priming process.  I did the ring seating process using the open road as soon as I was finished with the cam break in.  Oil drained from the filter had some light flecks in it after 200 miles, but I did not see anything of the sort in the oil drained from the pan.  It still looked nice and amber to my eyes.  No signs of silver.  I run a magnetic drain plug.  It picked up some silver residue but not much.  Extremely fine particles.

How would I determine the timing after the rebuild?  I had it set at 9* BTDC when I put it on the road, which is what the book calls for, without the computer).  It couldn't get out of it's own way and nearly stalled in gear at that setting.  I slowly kept bumping it up and driving.  I also kept an eye on manifold vacuum at idle and right around 18-20* BTDC it leveled off, maxing out at 16".  It isn't hard starting and never kicks back.  Idle is smooth with no off-idle stumble.  Seems very happy.  I had it at 22* briefly and heard no signs of trouble, but backed it off to 20* to be safe.  This engine also runs 20-25 degrees cooler on the gauge than the last one ever did.

Keep in mind, the long block was the only thing switched out here.  Manifolds, trans, carb, ignition, cooling system, accessories all stayed in place.

The old motor would detonate easily if timed too aggressively, so I'm familiar with the sound it makes.  I understand the damage can occur and it be inaudible, but with an aftermarket cam and no dead-on specs or number to time it to, how do you know EXACTLY where it should be now?

I've done my best to keep total timing (cent + base) at no more than 34-35*.  Currently I have 20* initial and 12* centrifugal.  My vac advance adds 20* at 15" vac which is maxed out.  I have the vac advance coming in at 4" per the canister adjustment.  Ported vacuum.  Centrifugal comes in just before 1000RPM, however is actually set on the conservative side of the curve outlined in the TSM.  The vac advance agrees completely with the curves in the TSM.  The only radical thing I have with timing is that initial setting.


Edited by macdude443 - Jul/10/2017 at 3:53pm
1982 Eagle SX/4
1986 Eagle Wagon
1985 Jeep Grand Wagoneer
Back to Top
scott View Drop Down
AMC Addicted
AMC Addicted


Joined: Jul/10/2007
Location: Wildwood Pa.
Status: Offline
Points: 3502
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scott Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul/10/2017 at 5:05pm
Since your cam is not stock, is not the one used with the previous engine setup, it is understandable that the initial timing that works best may be different than before. 
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.03
Copyright ©2001-2019 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.109 seconds.
All content of this site Copyright © 2018 TheAMCForum unless otherwise noted, all rights reserved.
PROBLEMS LOGGING IN or REGISTERING:
If you have problems logging in or registering, then please contact a Moderator or