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Truck Arms |
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Wrambler
AMC Addicted Joined: Jul/02/2007 Location: West Virginia Status: Offline Points: 4199 |
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Posted: Jul/27/2007 at 3:59pm |
Lets see if this generates any interest.
My 65 Ambassador is getting, I hope, a open driveline conversion. Plans call for a 327, 4bbl, Turbo 400 and a 9" rear axle. I'm about 99% sure I want to use truck arms to mount the 9". I've been doing some searching and reading. Looks to be fairly straight forward. I Like the idea of the truck arms mounting almost at the same area as the torgue tube pushes now. I'll be able to use the coil spring mounts directly from the AMC20 on the 9" and the panhard bar should also be a fairly simple swap. Maybe depending on angles I'll swap to a fully adjustable panhard setup to get it level at ride height, maybe not. I want to use this car for cruising and as a tow rig, so it'll get a big arsed trans cooler and other towing niceties. I was thinking of going to straight airbags in the rear, but I'm now thinking that perhaps I will go with the simpler booster bags in the worn coils. That way if it blows a bag I'll still have something to keep it from dropping clear to the ground. I've flipped this idea out there on the amc-list and got some nay sayers. I'd like to hear more. The biggest nay was that the rear won't "twist" properly and parts will break. After my reading I believe that by using rubber front bushings and either factory chevy truck arms or NASCAR pieces that flex is built into these pieces by their I beam type design. I think using tubes for truck arms and or Monoballs bushings would lead to rigidity and parts fatigue. I don't think I beam units will fail. Chevy trucks did not have a failure problem with these items and how many times have you seen a rear end come out of a NASCAR? sure NASCARS longest race is 600 miles, but those are very hard 600 miles with tons of stress and flex. Anyway, trying to get some comments and see what others think. Tips from anyone who knows how to do this would be great. I'm not afraid to tinker getting this right. What I've seen says, front truck arm mount should be as low as possible. Panhard Bar should mount slightly above the intersection of the truckarms and the rear axle and be level at ride height. Pannhard bar should also be as long as possible. Edited by Wrambler - Jul/27/2007 at 4:02pm |
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Wrambler
69 AMC Rambler 4.0L, 5 speed 2015 Grand Cherokee Limited 2019 Chrysler 300 |
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KermitDRambler
AMC Addicted Joined: Jul/06/2007 Location: Cincinnati, OH Status: Offline Points: 2579 |
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You'll need to modify the spring seats a little bit to get them on the 9" rear since the axle tubes are different diameters but that's not a big deal. You may also want to use the factory panhard bar since it's already the correct length. I don't think the factory bar is level to the ground but it's also not a straight bar so that just may be the way it was enginereed (that or there was a packaging problem or no one put much thought into it). I would think that if you duplicated what GM did on their trucks, you wouldn't have a problem with broken parts. Matt |
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prostreetamx
AMC Addicted Joined: Jul/15/2007 Location: Las Vegas, NV Status: Offline Points: 1532 |
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I shortened a set of truck arms for use in a Scout. They kept breaking at the rear welds due to the mods. If they had been used as intended, I don't think this would have been a problem. The beams are actually 2 C shaped chanels rivited together so they can flex. There are several companys making a tubular style truck arm with all the correct flex mounts. I ended up fabing up some long ladder bars for the Scout. Truck arms are a pretty simple, easy to use setup, but are rather big for car use without some floor mods. I put a 4 link, Air Bar setup from Air Ride in my Javelin. I'm riding on air on all 4 corners with Shockwaves.
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Richard Payne
Las Vegas,NV 72 5.7 Hemi Javelin 77 Prostreet 401/727 AMX, [/URL] |
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Peter Marano
Supporter of TheAMCForum Joined: Jul/01/2007 Location: Kenosha WI Status: Offline Points: 1650 |
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I think you have a well thought out plan for your project. I offer this up for anyone who would like to replace the torque tube transmission without replacing the rear suspension.
Build a mount for the torque tube independent of the transmission, or modify the extension housing to accept the toque tube flange. The toque tube and drive shaft length can be adjusted to the location of the output of the replacement transmission. The torque tube is 'dry'. |
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billd
Moderator Group Forum Administrator Joined: Jun/27/2007 Location: Iowa Status: Offline Points: 30894 |
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I like Peter's thinking. Why not modify it?
It's a pretty simple design, single CV joint at the front, solid shaft, torque tube is dry, nothing to seal other than to keep crap out. I've wondered that myself back in the 70's when I kept tearing the tranny out of my 64 Rambler racing it....... That might actually be a fun project, a great challenge, and would be appreciated by a LOT of Rambler folks! |
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Wrambler
AMC Addicted Joined: Jul/02/2007 Location: West Virginia Status: Offline Points: 4199 |
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Modifying the Torque tube is a possibility.
I need to look at what is in place and what I have.
I can get a better idea when I part out the parts car.
The turbo 400 is in 4X4 form now, I wonder what it would take to adapt it to the tube? A lot depends on length, adaptation of the tailhousing for the 4X4 and spline setups....
I'm not going to put a ton of effort into keeping the 20 though, so don't hold your breath.....
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Wrambler
69 AMC Rambler 4.0L, 5 speed 2015 Grand Cherokee Limited 2019 Chrysler 300 |
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JohnnyRebel
AMC Apprentice Joined: Jul/08/2007 Status: Offline Points: 56 |
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I like the way billd uses to terms fun project, and great challange in the same sentance. This man is obviously an incurable optimist.
I have thought about what Peter suggested. It seems to me that the problem lies in the adjusting of the tube and shaft lengths. without a slip ( My factory manual shows there isn't one ) joint in the shaft you would have to get the length exactly correct. The tube could also be cut and rewelded to a different length, but again same problem. I suppose you could fab motor mounts that would give a small range of adjustment fore and aft, but would they not come loose?
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farna
Supporter of TheAMCForum Moderator Lost Dealership Project Joined: Jul/08/2007 Location: South Carolina Status: Offline Points: 19676 |
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Johnny's hit the problematic nail on the head! There IS a slip joint though. The U-joint on V-8 models just slips in the transmission output shaft, on six cylinders it slips on the trans AND the solid driveshaft. The problem is it slips on, but is designed to stay in one place. It's not as long as an open drive slip joint.
Theoretically the flange on the 63-66 torque tube could be bolted to a metal plate that is then fastened to a crossmember. That plate has to be able to take the axle pushing and pulling (when braking) on it though. The 63-66 cars have arms attached to the crossmember for this and the crossmember is rubber mounted. Those cars go through engine and trans mounts more than others since a lot more road stress is put through them. It's not like the mounts need to be replaced often, but by 100K miles they are pretty worn. It's just not very feasible to do this. You could weld a flange on the back of a trans -- one welding shop was confident they could cut and mate a BW and an AMC 904 tailshaft housing, but I didn't like the idea. It should work though. Mark, Hot Rods to Hell sells a G-body GM kit that looks like it would be easy to mod for Ramblers (http://www.hotrodstohell.net/truckarm/truckarm_gbody/truckarm_gbody.htm). The springs sit on the axle just like our cars. A little modding of the crossmember should be about all it takes. If you want to build your own they sell the arms separately (http://www.hotrodstohell.net/catalog/catalog.htm#CC). That might be your best bet. I think a square tubing arm would be a good choice. The trick is the tubing can't be(1/16" sidewalls) should be good, 1.5-2" wide, 3-4" tall. The tall cross section will prevent bending, the gauge is light enough and the tubes narrow enough to allow flex. 10-11 gauge would be to heavy to twist much, but something like 14 gauge might be better if you're going to be shocking the rear axle a lot. It just won't twist as easy. Round tubing won't work well at all since it can't twist like rectangular tubing or I beams would. The arms need to be long so they won't twist much. Too much twist and they'll stay twisted. The longer the better! The angle prevents too much twisting also. If/when I get another 63-66 big car body I want to build a truck arm suspension. Would love to make a kit for these cars! I know, just tow that Ambo down here next summer, pay for the materials only, and I'll mock up and test a kit on your car! It will be next summer before I have the shop ready for a big project. Of course you have to change the rear axle as well. The AMC 20 for the TT cars doesn't lend itself to open conversion. There is a seal holder that can be bolted on without the tube, but I'm not sure the yoke from an open drive car will match the splines and size of the pinion shaft, and the pinion shaft isn't drilled for a bolt. You could always drill the yoke for a big set screw or two if it's just a cruiser, but that's if the yoke will even fit. Then you have to find a yoke too. Edited by farna - Aug/01/2007 at 1:25pm |
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Frank Swygert
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Wrambler
AMC Addicted Joined: Jul/02/2007 Location: West Virginia Status: Offline Points: 4199 |
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Well frank, HTH's kits look great, but I'm not impressed with buying a high buck kit that needs reworked. If I could get them to scratch build their stuff for the Ambassador I would. Other wise I see no point in reinventing the wheel. circle track arms are plentiful as are 9" Fords still. Heavy yeah, but stout as all get out.
If I was closer I'd bring the ambassador over and let you have at it! Be careful I might take you up on that offer!
There is another company that makes a crossemember for lowered Chevy trucks. I found an article and it showed a nice crossmember, bolt on brackets for less then $200 ready to go. Alas when I hit the website, they have upgraded the crossmember to welded brackets and powder coating.
I asked them if they could provide one with the unwelded brackets and no powder coat and the blew me off. Circle track crossmembers appear too adjustable for my tastes.
I never did get anyone to tell me what axle width to look for.
I'm building an overkill 56" 9" Ford for my American I'd liek to be able to keep my eyes out for the right housing for the Ambo too.
I got a cut big bearing housing for the 56" total width for $230 with added drain and fill plugs. Yeah, it'll be a little costly to finish it.
The truck arms are going to have to go on simmer mode with the Americans T5 build and the rear axle.
If anyone here has any 3:50 geared 9" pigs I'm interested!
I'm squishing my Rambler mentality on this one!
I've tried to sell this convertible off several times and no takers, so I'm just going to try and keep it viable till I actually FINISH the American.
The new added Job position is posted as of tomorrow and 99% of my overtime will be GONE! I hope I will regain my spare time, see my kids and get my life back. 2 weeks in Hawaii to start off ain't going to hurt either... Edited by Wrambler - Aug/01/2007 at 1:43pm |
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Wrambler
69 AMC Rambler 4.0L, 5 speed 2015 Grand Cherokee Limited 2019 Chrysler 300 |
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Peter Marano
Supporter of TheAMCForum Joined: Jul/01/2007 Location: Kenosha WI Status: Offline Points: 1650 |
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Attach a flange to the replacement transmission (weld or bolt), attach the flange the same distance relative to the end of the output shaft end. Measure the length of both transmissions, the difference is the amount to shorten or lengthen both the drive shaft and the torque tube. The turbo 400 yoke may not be available to fit the universal joint on the torque tube drive shaft, but the proper yoke can be welded to the drive shaft. I am not suggesting anyone DO this, I am just pointing out a way to keep the torque tube(I no longer hate the toque tube). |
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