TheAMCForum.com Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > The Garage > Transmission & Drivetrain
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Transmission questions
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Click for TheAMCForum Rules / Click for PDF version of Forum Rules
Your donations help keep this valuable resource free and growing. Thank you.

Transmission questions

 Post Reply Post Reply
Author
Message
Rambler Mexicano View Drop Down
AMC Addicted
AMC Addicted
Avatar

Joined: Mar/05/2011
Location: Guadalajara
Status: Offline
Points: 583
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rambler Mexicano Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Transmission questions
    Posted: May/24/2016 at 4:36pm
I'm trying to help some friends with some mid 60s VAM cars and I'm trying to find some information mainly on transmission/engine combinations.

1.- What is the factory manual transmission model used in the second-half of 1965 and 1966 Rambler American with the 199 six that is non-synchronized?

2.- What is the factory manual transmission model used in 1964 and first-half of 1965 Rambler American with the 195.6 six? Was it the same model with the L-head version and the OHV version or were there different transmissions between engine versions?

3.- What was the factory manual transmission model used in the 138 hp OHV version of the 195.6? Was it the same as the one on the L-head and 127 hp OHV versions?

What is the automatic transmission model used in this same version of the engine (138 hp OHV)?

4.- What is the automatic transmission model used in 1965 Rambler Americans with the 145-155 hp 232 six engine? Is this the same transmission model used in the Rambler Classic of the same period (1965-1966) and engine?

5.- Transmission models used in torque tube cars CANNOT be used in four-link rear suspension cars and vice-versa. Is this correct?

6.- From 1963 through 1969 all Rambler Classics and Rambler Americans were available with fully synchromesh three-speed manual transmissions as optional equipment. Is this correct?

All factory transmissions in these models were non-synchro. Is this correct?

7.- The automatic transmission model used in the 232-six 1965 Rambler American 440H model was the same as the one used in 1968-1971 Javelins with the 232?

Thanks in advance for any information that can be provided.
Mauricio Jordán

Cuando no se es una empresa famosa se deben hacer mejores automóviles.
- Vehículos Automotores Mexicanos S. A. de C. V.
Back to Top
tomj View Drop Down
AMC Addicted
AMC Addicted
Avatar

Joined: Jan/27/2010
Location: los angeles
Status: Offline
Points: 2387
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tomj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/25/2016 at 10:04pm

QUESTION 1.- What is the factory manual transmission model used in the second-half of 1965 and 1966 Rambler American with the 199 six that is non-synchronized?

T96

QUESTION 2.- What is the factory manual transmission model used in 1964 and first-half of 1965 Rambler American with the 195.6 six? Was it the same model with the L-head version and the OHV version or were there different transmissions between engine versions?

T96

QUESTION 3.- What was the factory manual transmission model used in the 138 hp OHV version of the 195.6? Was it the same as the one on the L-head and 127 hp OHV versions?

T96

QUESTION What is the automatic transmission model used in this same version of the engine (138 hp OHV)?

at least by '61, the good old Borg Warner M35.

4.- What is the automatic transmission model used in 1965 Rambler Americans with the 145-155 hp 232 six engine? Is this the same transmission model used in the Rambler Classic of the same period (1965-1966) and engine?

BW M35

QUESTION 5.- Transmission models used in torque tube cars CANNOT be used in four-link rear suspension cars and vice-versa. Is this correct?

i think you mean here, "AMC" cars, not "Rambler" cars, using the US designation... i can't answer this.

QUESTION 6.- From 1963 through 1969 all Rambler Classics and Rambler Americans were available with fully synchromesh three-speed manual transmissions as optional equipment. Is this correct? 

NO. here, it may be better to use the chassis numeric designations. Americans, aka 01 chassis, before 1964, is basically a Nash car. as you can guess from the above there were only TWO TRANSMISSIONS, manual, T96 sometimes with optional R10 overdrive, and the BW M35, though on early (pre-61) years something else was used. 1964 on, it's a different chassis, but... even with the 199/232 the same transmissions were used.

Note that some models -- US Rogue, the '69 Hurst SC/Rambler, etc -- though based upon the 01 chassis are not "Americans" model-wise and had different engine/trans combos.

then of course it's goodl old ay emm see and they did all sorts of mix'n'match. here and there.

some 195.6, L-head and OHV,  had the "volcano butt" crank and some flat-butt cranks, the latter identical to the flat butt of the 64 through 71 199/232/258 six. (eg. during an interim period AMC built AMC engines with Nash flywheel/bellhousing fitment).

10 (and 16, 18, etc, the US "Classic" big chassis with 6 cyl) and 80 (and 88, etc, the US "Ambassador" big chassis with V8) had other manual transmission options; T-eighty-something i think. IN NO WAY COMPATIBLE with the T96.


QUESTION: All factory transmissions in these models were non-synchro. Is this correct? 

ID the trans, google it, lots of info on that detail.


QUESTION 7.- The automatic transmission model used in the 232-six 1965 Rambler American 440H model was the same as the one used in 1968-1971 Javelins with the 232?

Someone else will have to answer this. TSMs have all this info.


Thanks in advance for any information that can be provided.
[/QUOTE]


Edited by tomj - May/25/2016 at 10:08pm
1961 roadster american
195.6 OHV, modded
T5z, 3.42:1 mustang axle
Back to Top
tomj View Drop Down
AMC Addicted
AMC Addicted
Avatar

Joined: Jan/27/2010
Location: los angeles
Status: Offline
Points: 2387
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tomj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/25/2016 at 10:16pm
to properly deal with Nash/Rambler/AMC chassis, engine, transmission, etc combinations, you can't really use the model names. not only are they different in US vs Mexico, or whatever market, AMC isn't even self-consistent, marketing-wise.

much more useful are the numeric chassis designations. THOSE MAKE SENSE as that largely determines what bolts into what. 01's are the little car, of Nash origin, that morphed into the 64..69 American, and then to the AMX, Gremlin, Spirit, and sort of, Concord. it was an excellent, very long live and solid design.

60's 10 and 80 cars (sedans, wagons, etc got different digits where there's a "0" there) are AMCs "big car". 10 and 80 "look alike" and pretty much everything bolts from one to the other. mostly. 

01, 10, 80, etc are the ALL WELDED UNITS, aka the unibodies.

i only know the 60's cars well. never had any interest in actually large cars of any brand or make. the 63-up 108" wheelbase 10 series (Classics) may be AMCs finest product, design and build quality, and also the physically largest car i've ever had any interest in. i lost all interest in AMC design work after 1969.

1961 roadster american
195.6 OHV, modded
T5z, 3.42:1 mustang axle
Back to Top
Rambler Mexicano View Drop Down
AMC Addicted
AMC Addicted
Avatar

Joined: Mar/05/2011
Location: Guadalajara
Status: Offline
Points: 583
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rambler Mexicano Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/26/2016 at 1:38pm
Thank you very much for your responses Tomj,

Apparently the T96 manual transmission was strong enough for all versions of the mid-60s six cylinder engine.

We have to take into account there was a large range of power between versions.

90 hp-127 hp-138 hp-145 hp-155 hp (L head-OHV 1bbl-OHV 2bbl-232 1bbl-232 2bbl)

In regards to the TorqueTube cars, the 1958-1969 Rambler Americans were all open air four-link rear suspension cars as far as my knowledge goes.

On the other hand, all 1956-1966 Rambler and Rambler Classic models were TorqueTube rear suspension cars.

What I am asking is if trasmissions are interchangeable between TorqueTube cars and non-TorqueTube cars.

The T96 and Borg-Warner M35 transmissions were interchangeable between 1964-1966 Rambler Americans and 1964-1966 Rambler Classics? If that's the case, were there different transmission cases for each application or they were both the same?

As far as I've been able to investigate, VAM cars from 1960 through 1966 are virtually exact copies of their AMC counterparts in regards to technical specifications. That means that engines and transmissions are virtually the same between the cars on both sides.

VAM launched its own engine plant in 1964 and engineering department in 1965, but back then it was still mainly focused in producing engines in Mexico without imported components aside from adapting Mexican Jeeps with the AMC sixes, which was achieved in 1966. The earliest changes I know in the car line is the full-installation of the 150-T three speed manual transmission in all cars in 1967 (199 and 232 engines only).

I have to mention that all VAM cars from 1960 through 1967 were restricted to three-speed manual transmissions, at least in regular production form that is.

The earliest VAM car with an automatic transmission that I know of is the 1963 Rambler American Hardtop (Rambler American 440H in US). It came standard with automatic transmission and the 138 hp 195.6 six engine. Unfortunately, we haven't been able to confirm this as we haven't been able to locate a surviving unit.

The one car that we have documented and have sound some surviving units of is the 1965 Rambler American Hardtop (Rambler American 440H), it has automatic transmission (floor mounted with console) and the 155 hp 232 six cylinder engine.

Both 1963 and 1965 hardtop models were LIMITED EDITION products.

It would be until 1968 for VAM to offer an automatic transmission in a regular production model: the Javelin. And it would be the ONLY car in the full line to offer it.

It would be until 1969 for this transmission to be offered in the Rambler Classic (Rebel) and 1970 in the Rambler American Wagon (carried over from 1969).

The main problem we have is that we do not know the actual models of Borg Warner transmission(s) used in VAM cars. Also, we have no information on 1960-1966 manual transmissions. We only have full information in the 1972-1983 TorqueFlyte automatics and the post-1967 manual transmissions.

We don't know if the Borg-Warner transmission used in the VAM sixes was a single model or if more than one was used.

For the 1963 and 1965 Rambler American Hardtops as well as the 232-only 1968 VAM Javelin, it is practically a fact that the Borg Warner M35 was used.

However, we don't know if this Borg-Warner M35 model automatic transmission was used with the 170 hp 252 1969-1970 VAM Javelins and 1970-1971 Rambler Classics or the 200 hp 282 six 1971 Javelin.

If the M35 was strong enough for these two high-torque VAM engines then it was used or if it wasn't strong enough a different model had to used, probably the one used in the two-barrel 1969-1971 290/304 V8s.


Edited by Rambler Mexicano - May/26/2016 at 1:45pm
Mauricio Jordán

Cuando no se es una empresa famosa se deben hacer mejores automóviles.
- Vehículos Automotores Mexicanos S. A. de C. V.
Back to Top
tomj View Drop Down
AMC Addicted
AMC Addicted
Avatar

Joined: Jan/27/2010
Location: los angeles
Status: Offline
Points: 2387
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tomj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/26/2016 at 3:21pm
Originally posted by Rambler Mexicano Rambler Mexicano wrote:

Apparently the T96 manual transmission was strong enough for all versions of the mid-60s six cylinder engine.

well, AMC installed it in all those cars, but it is not a very good transmission. i would not agree that it is strong enough for all cars! maybe for 1960 it was OK, where a car was old and dead at 80,000 miles. our standards have gone up! :-)


Originally posted by Rambler Mexicano Rambler Mexicano wrote:

In regards to the TorqueTube cars, the 1958-1969 Rambler Americans were all open air four-link rear suspension cars as far as my knowledge goes.

On the other hand, all 1956-1966 Rambler and Rambler Classic models were TorqueTube rear suspension cars. 

to be specific, all "small" cars (the 01 series Americans, then all it's design line inheritors, AMX, Gremlin, Hornet, Concord, ...) 1958 through 1988 were all longitudinal elliptical leaf spring rear suspensions. 

1958 through... 1967? 1966? "big" cars (Classic, Ambassador, ...) were torque tube with coil springs and a panhard locator. at some point around 1970? AMC entirely abandoned torque tube, and used longitudinal leaf springs or a true "four link" suspension, depending on chassis series.

Originally posted by Rambler Mexicano Rambler Mexicano wrote:

What I am asking is if trasmissions are interchangeable between TorqueTube cars and non-TorqueTube cars.

The T96 and Borg-Warner M35 transmissions were interchangeable between 1964-1966 Rambler Americans and 1964-1966 Rambler Classics? If that's the case, were there different transmission cases for each application or they were both the same?

i would be very wary of the word "interchangeable". it means different things to different people! to some, it means exact bolt-in with no modifications necessary. at the other extreme, it means internal parts are the same, for example, which rebuild kit you would use. automatic transmissions are a good example of this -- auto-trans CASES often change wildly, while the internal clutches bands and hard parts interchange without modification.

very broad statements have been found to not stay true! especially with AMC, who never had anything like the "numbers matching" concept other manufacturers did. AMC went with broad compatiblity and made all sorts of WEIRD parts to make things fit together. 

consider one part only as an example: water pumps. both sixes have at least three different water pumps (shaft length and inlet clocking) and at least 8 different pulley depths! i know because i have 8 (eight!) and they are all AMC/Rambler and they are all different depths! these are all "interchangable" but likely, only one will fit your car!

even the T96 used in the pre-64 Americans has at least two case variants -- two different, but very similar, bolt patterns at the bell housing. the older one the two lower holes are higher up than the later T96. or is it the other 'way around? so even amongst T96s, there are: two cases, plus R10 overdrive variants, plus the "Twin Stick" different second gear, plus the torque tube vs. open driveline tailhousing.

does that mean that T96 interchanges with "T96"? LOL!

so my T96 died, again, and i decided to replace it with a "modern"! HA! transmission, the AMC passenger car version of the T14. T14 is a JEEP! part, with a top-loaded shifter, but AMC adapted it -- who knows why they chose that model -- by making it side-shifted and a very long mainshaft and tail housing. the bearing retainer has a T96 part number! and it fits, exactly, into the bellhousing, mates with the T96 clutch, fits the pilot bearing in the back of a 1963 195.6OHV. but the two lower mounting holes are wrong (i made an adapter) and it was not meant to dangle off the back of the short bellhousing as the T96 did. so now it needs it's tail supported (a fifth motor mount!). 

does that mean the T14 interchanges with the T96? in my world, yes it does, because a own a plasma cutter, welder, a shop, and i make hot rods! lol. purist restorers have openly sneered at me at AMC meets, lol. (i don't feel bad though, all of my cars have been abandoned or parts cars to start out.)


Originally posted by Rambler Mexicano Rambler Mexicano wrote:

As far as I've been able to investigate, VAM cars from 1960 through 1966 are virtually exact copies of their AMC counterparts in regards to technical specifications. That means that engines and transmissions are virtually the same between the cars on both sides.

yes! we can assume, because AMC was so small, that "your" parts and options are the same as "our" parts and options, just in different combinations and different names. and maybe Mexico cars got special water pumps! lol


Originally posted by Rambler Mexicano Rambler Mexicano wrote:

VAM launched its own engine plant in 1964 and engineering department in 1965, but back then it was still mainly focused in producing engines in Mexico without imported components aside from adapting Mexican Jeeps with the AMC sixes, which was achieved in 1966. The earliest changes I know in the car line is the full-installation of the 150-T three speed manual transmission in all cars in 1967 (199 and 232 engines only).

i knew about VAM engines but not the T150 business! (i have one here, with attached overdrive, i paid too much for it now i'll never use it. someone needs to come get it.) but i will bet that it uses some regular bellhousing and other parts... but maybe VAM has a whole new set of brackets, bells, clutch parts, ...!

Originally posted by Rambler Mexicano Rambler Mexicano wrote:

The earliest VAM car with an automatic transmission that I know of is the 1963 Rambler American Hardtop (Rambler American 440H in US). It came standard with automatic transmission and the 138 hp 195.6 six engine. Unfortunately, we haven't been able to confirm this as we haven't been able to locate a surviving unit.

there were not many of that model here in the US either. that was almost certainly the M35. the M35 is the only antique AMC transmission i'd consider usable today, though apparently parts are harder to find of course.

Originally posted by Rambler Mexicano Rambler Mexicano wrote:

The main problem we have is that we do not know the actual models of Borg Warner transmission(s) used in VAM cars. Also, we have no information on 1960-1966 manual transmissions. We only have full information in the 1972-1983 TorqueFlyte automatics and the post-1967 manual transmissions.

We don't know if the Borg-Warner transmission used in the VAM sixes was a single model or if more than one was used.

For the 1963 and 1965 Rambler American Hardtops as well as the 232-only 1968 VAM Javelin, it is practically a fact that the Borg Warner M35 was used.

However, we don't know if this Borg-Warner M35 model automatic transmission was used with the 170 hp 252 1969-1970 VAM Javelins and 1970-1971 Rambler Classics or the 200 hp 282 six 1971 Javelin.

If the M35 was strong enough for these two high-torque VAM engines then it was used or if it wasn't strong enough a different model had to used, probably the one used in the two-barrel 1969-1971 290/304 V8s.

first, the factory technical service manuals, and the factory parts catalogs, contain precisely what you want. and they all refer to the cars with the series (unibody) numbers. i would begin by using series, instead of car model.

i assume VAM produced spanish-language manuals, but i of course have no real knowledge. i used to visit used book stores, goe to the "automobile" section and buy every single AMC TSM that would appear (about once a year). maybe try that there?

the parts catalogs are rare! i have the 1960 to 1965 parts catalog online here. if you want a ZIP file copy of the entire document, in one piece and in folders containing pages let me know. you could "wget" the folder if you know how.


1961 roadster american
195.6 OHV, modded
T5z, 3.42:1 mustang axle
Back to Top
farna View Drop Down
Supporter of TheAMCForum
Supporter of TheAMCForum
Avatar
Moderator Lost Dealership Project

Joined: Jul/08/2007
Location: South Carolina
Status: Offline
Points: 15241
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote farna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/27/2016 at 7:26am
Well, Tom hit pretty much everything. The T-96 was used in all cars with 199 or 195.6 engines. It was even used behind the 232 in Gremlins (and I think Hornets) in 71 and 72 only. That, however, was a special model (T-96J) with a slightly larger input shaft and front bearing, and a few other stronger parts... but not the synchronizer. The single synchronizer between 2nd and 3rdgears is the weak link in that trans.

You CAN use a torque tube trans with a four link axle. You just have to have a yoke that will fit the trans from an open driveshaft car. The rear seal is the same in a 63 Classic and 63 American T-96. The American trans (car model, of course, not just US made!!) just doesn't have the TT adapter. You can change the output housing or you will just have a large flange on the rear of the trans. The flange doesn't interfere with the driveshaft or anything else AFAIK, so no harm in leaving it.


7.- The automatic transmission model used in the 232-six 1965 Rambler American 440H model was the same as the one used in 1968-1971 Javelins with the 232?

Essentially, yes. The 65 American may have used an M-35 or 37, by 68 the M-40 was used. There are minor differences between the three, but the trannys will interchange. Generally the higher the number the more torque to trans will handle. The M-40 was used behind 290 V-8s with 2V carb as well, but the 4V carb models got the stronger M-11.
Frank Swygert
Back to Top
Rambler Mexicano View Drop Down
AMC Addicted
AMC Addicted
Avatar

Joined: Mar/05/2011
Location: Guadalajara
Status: Offline
Points: 583
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rambler Mexicano Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/29/2016 at 3:25pm
Thanks a lot, Frank and Tomj.

It seems indeed that the transmission used in regular prdocution VAM cars from 1960 through 1966 was virtually the T96 since all VAM cars were I6 engine-equipped (195.6, 199 and 232).

Starting in 1967, the only three speed transmission used in VAM cars was the 150-T model, which was already fully sinchronized. One cool thing about this transmission application was that it was available with Hurst linkage in the 1970-1974 Rambler American Rallys (Hornet X) and 1976-1980 Gremlin Xs (Spirit Sedan with X package). It was still used in base model 1980-1983 Gremlins (Spirit sedans) and 1980-1983 base model Americans (Concords). Two-door base American and base Gremlin of that period were floor-shift cars while four-door American and station wagon were still column-shifted.

As for the automatic, it's highly probable that the unit used in the 1968 Javelins was the M35.

I really doubt it could have handled the torque of the 170-hp 252 six (1969-1970) and the one of the 200-hp 282 six (1971).

It's more likely that the M40 was used, not to mention in the case of the VAM Go Pack was used.
Mauricio Jordán

Cuando no se es una empresa famosa se deben hacer mejores automóviles.
- Vehículos Automotores Mexicanos S. A. de C. V.
Back to Top
farna View Drop Down
Supporter of TheAMCForum
Supporter of TheAMCForum
Avatar
Moderator Lost Dealership Project

Joined: Jul/08/2007
Location: South Carolina
Status: Offline
Points: 15241
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote farna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/29/2016 at 6:31pm
T-96 was used in the smaller cars with 196 or 199... in 70-72 Gremlins and Hornets with 232 (T-96J, which is a bit stronger than the others and ONLY used by AMC). The big cars got the T-14 with the 232 or 258 starting around 66 or so. It's a fully synchronized trans. Later model Americans used the T-14 with the 232 as well. Don't know why AMC went back to that darned old T-96 in the early 70s! T-150 (or 150T... same trans!) came out in the 70s, so that trans used in the late 60s cars with Hurst shifter is probably a T-14. The 150 is made for sixes also, and is a medium duty trans like the T-14. T-14 was also used behind some smaller V-8s, but Ford used it with the BW OD unit in the late 60s even behind big V-8s. I guess they figured if you were buying an OD trans you weren't going to be doing a lot of hot rodding around. The T-10 was available for that!

There is an M-36 and 37 also. They are similar to the M-35, just a bit stronger. The M-37 was used in late 60s Ambassadors with 232 six. The M-4x series is similar and will interchange with the M-3x. The M-35 is air cooled and TV cable only, the other 3x models at least have a provision for liquid cooling and use a vacuum modulator instead of TV cable.
Frank Swygert
Back to Top
tyrodtom View Drop Down
AMC Addicted
AMC Addicted


Joined: Sep/14/2007
Location: Virginia
Status: Offline
Points: 5658
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tyrodtom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/29/2016 at 8:18pm
I don't think Detroit would have thought if you got a overdrive transmission you weren't going to be hot rodding the car, before 4 speeds became available a 3sp OD was the transmission of choice of performance minded drivers, as well as economy minded drivers.
  GM came out with the T-10 in 57, Ford didn't get a 4 speed till the early 60s, not sure about Mopar.
Until 4 speeds were widely available for V8s, drivers wanting good performance in a straight stick opted for the 3 speed overdrive
66 American SW, 66 American 2dr, 82 J10, 70 Hornet, Pound, Va.
Back to Top
tomj View Drop Down
AMC Addicted
AMC Addicted
Avatar

Joined: Jan/27/2010
Location: los angeles
Status: Offline
Points: 2387
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tomj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/29/2016 at 9:45pm
i have a T150 here, with LaycockNormandville or whatever OD unit. the sucker is huge and heavy. come'n'git it it's yours (Los Angeles)! i pay like $400 for the miserable thing some 10 yrs ago. i'm sure it needs rebuilding, but it's all there. it's collecting spiders and mouse poops under the ramada... i'll toss those in for free to sweeten the deal. to be clear, free, haul it away.

1961 roadster american
195.6 OHV, modded
T5z, 3.42:1 mustang axle
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down



This page was generated in 0.109 seconds.
All content of this site Copyright © 2012 TheAMCForum unless otherwise noted, all rights reserved.
PROBLEMS LOGGING IN or REGISTERING:
If you have problems logging in or registering, then please contact a Moderator or