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Jeff's Headers using Grace Billet

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amcenthusiast View Drop Down
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    Posted: Mar/29/2020 at 2:21pm
Thanks JTSLLC1 for your better explanations.
Link to XRV8 Race Parts website: www.amcramblermarlin.1colony.com
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote i6cj7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov/22/2019 at 10:06pm
Where can these Grace billet flanges be found/bought? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jtsllc1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov/12/2019 at 8:33am
Originally posted by klvn8r klvn8r wrote:

FWIW....I have the underhood pictures of the Paschal Javelin and the 'weird' "headers", along with the GM style front stub.  There's a fair chance that they've been posted before, or someone made copies.

klvn8r

Warren Prout made the headers for Jim Paschal as you can see in the pictures you have the headers were made with 1 5/8 primary pipe. The original set of Paschal's headers were for sale on Ebay sometime ago.

Yep with out a doubt I believe they figure out a winning combo between the Crossram and the primary pipe size. Winning 7 out of 8 races speaks for itself and knowing they need the engine to finish the race to win the race was priceless for them.

I.M.O. Warren Prout's headers are opposite in size compared to Penske or Ronnie Kaplan and so is the number of wins and engine failure's.

As far as the Grace Billet they can be considered similar but they are different. All the Grace Billet are identical for each cylinder and flow exactly the same even with the tightest 90 deg. stub cut from what they refer to as doughnut cut into 4 pieces. During flow bench testing rotating the tightest 90 deg. only varied 1 CFM.

The Grace Billet's also can be machined to use the venturi effect allowing a smaller dia. I.D. to out flow a 2 1/4 pipe with a tight 2" I.D. 90 deg attached to the Grace Billet. The 750 carb which uses an 850 throttle plate to produce 950 CFM would be a good example of the results a venturi effect has.  I stopped at just the 1 5/8 Grace Billet with a 1.5" I.D. because it turned out to be the right size for my combo to produce 500+ HP. I felt going bigger would have hurt my numbers in the lower RPM range. I ended up with 1 5/8 stepped to 1 3/4 because I need to cover the 3500 to 6800 RPM range and I also used Big's carb with a 1.440 dia.  opening up to a 1.750 throttle bore flow tested at 950 CFM for the Engine Masters Challenge.

If you were to look at the Paschal headers each port is not the same. I.M.O. they probably did some testing and found out the cast exhaust manifold when cut into a stub has a flow rating within 1 CFM as a cut 1 7/8 header primary pipe. Allot of shops who flow heads use a straight cheater pipe when they flow your exhaust. Coil Racing was surprised when we attached the Grace Billet on the exhaust port with the next tightest 90 deg. pipe  and the Grace Billet surpassed his straight cheater pipe by 10 CFM. He could not believe it and then I asked him if his straight cheater pipe would fit in the engine compartment? My last comment was since your cheater pipe can not you do not have real world exhaust numbers to give to the cam grinder and most likely if you were to have attached a cheater pipe with a bend your flow numbers would be even less.

In the end I always believe seeing is believing so I entered in the Engine Masters Challenge. Even though I had to run a 360 with out our good heads because of the exhaust valve size I decided to enter with the under par set of heads which even turned out to be more problematic with the oil passing the valve seals. We were able to qualify and beat several engines with only 256 CFM iron heads. 

If you were to look up the video you can clearly see for yourself the un ported Pro Flo 2 and the Grace Billet with the 1 5/8 stepped to 1 3/4 and Super Scavenger collectors with a 3 inch hat had not problems running to 6900 RPM and making over 500 HP @ 5890 RPM. I see no problems producing the same wide power range but with higher numbers reaching 550 peak, I will also be going smaller with a 2.5" hat for the collector and shorter primary pipes.

After running the same set of headers from the challenge on my AMX now with my 401  I really do not see the need to run big primary pipe headers in order to make 500 + HP. No Theory's just reality I.M.O. the same reality Jim Pascahl and Warren Prout figured out back in the day....

Since I found no need to run bigger soon Jeff will be the first to shed some light on running the next size up Grace Billet and like I said before seeing is believing. I look forward to see the results with Jeff's new intake and headers. Hopefully he will also be under index like the SS290 and Adkins. 


Edited by jtsllc1 - Nov/12/2019 at 8:41am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote klvn8r Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov/11/2019 at 9:38pm
FWIW....I have the underhood pictures of the Paschal Javelin and the 'weird' "headers", along with the GM style front stub.  There's a fair chance that they've been posted before, or someone made copies.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote one bad rambler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov/10/2019 at 7:46pm
Those Are Sweet!!!!
68 AMX 390 4 Speed,68 American,64 American 2 Door Wagon Altered Wheelbase,78 Concord Build 360,727,8.8
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jtsllc1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov/10/2019 at 2:40am
Originally posted by amcenthusiast amcenthusiast wrote:

Hmm, savory brain food posted by jtsllc1 -thanks.

I couldn't tell by looking at the pics if the header pipes are high tech coated or chrome -thanks for taking no offense.

I was just reading EPI's article on exhaust system technology and found this quote which I thought was applicable to this discussion:

http://www.epi-eng.com/piston_engine_technology/exhaust_system_technology.htm

"Whenever the pressure wave encounters a change in cross-sectional area of the pipe, a reflected pressure wave is generated, which travels in the opposite direction"

...The man's an excellent technical writer and one of my favorite teachers for all his excellent explanations.

As far as the interplay between induction and scavenging systems on this drag race AMX, I'd say  there is more swirl flow designed into '66-'91 AMV8 cylinder heads than is commonly known.

I think D. Elgin (D. Elgin Racing cams) would enjoy cutting a cam for your engine. He knows AMV8 like nobody else because he attended an SAE speech given by AM engineer who designed '66-'91 AMV8 cylinder heads. (surprise-surprise) In my estimation, he's one of the few highly educated professional cam grinders who actually favors American Motors engines enough to  advocate their merits.  I'd say, he's the 'go to guy' in our AMC world right now if you need a cam cut specifically for your custom built engine.

https://elgincams.com/


'Grace Billet'? -Looking good!

More power to you. I'm always an admirer of your work with that AMX. Super cool/Love it.



 I was lucky to hook up with Jim Dugan who was one of the pioneers of Racing. Dugan was contracted by Mickey Thompson, Penske, Carol Shelby etc.etc..... Jim was a mentor and filled me in on his years of experience of what works and what does not. Jim has several patents including the Super Scavenger collector so we joined together and came up with Grace / Dugan  Equipped.  Jim owns a header manufacturing facility and re made the die to re produce his original Super Scavenger Collector. Jim produced the Super Scavenger Header for M/T back in the day to be used on a Javelin M/T Equipped for an AMC dealer. Unfortunately Jim passed away before I went to the Engine Masters Challenge. His wife decided to keep Jim's business running after his passing as long as the Employees were on board. The testing I have done leans toward a 1 5/8 stepped to 1 3/4 with a total primary pipe length of 30". The primary pipe lengths are equalized in the new Super Scavenger slip on collector with a venturi hat. The venturi hat reduces to 2.5 " and backup to 3" with a V band to connect to 3" exhaust.  I have tested and found no problems handling 500+ HP allowing for a 3 piece per side 30 minute install.

Engle Cams did the Traco AMC and Chevrolet engines along with NASCAR engines except Bobby Allison used Reed Cams and he ended up building his own engines resulting in more HP. As of today Spiro Jennings of Red Line Cams who got allot of his education while working at Engle Cams from John  also favors AMC. I quickly learned at the Engine Masters I was competing against engines who use Spiro cams. I guess it was a bonding experience because everyone at breakfast has Spiro's number in their phones. They did say Spiro has an unconventional way but he makes HP and we all know if you are not making HP you are just farting in the wind. Adkins Uses Comp Cams and Red Line, Spiro was able to grind a cam reducing spring pressure resulting in longer lasting springs and some extra HP. Spiro also ground Jeff's best cam for Stock Eliminator with .457 lift the 390 dyno numbers were 555HP with an R4B and was tested to 8500 RPM only losing 8 HP. Spiro also ground the roller cam in Jeff's current Super Stock combo and all Jeff has to say is it has a .500 base circle and the lifts are .850/.825. Who knows maybe the SS 290 will run Spiro's grind in the future.




Edited by jtsllc1 - Nov/11/2019 at 5:30am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jtsllc1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov/10/2019 at 1:33am
Originally posted by White70JavelinSST White70JavelinSST wrote:

Grace Billet and Jeff's Headers make a winning combo, and look great doing it !

Two questions

1. Is there any reason to think that this design wouldn't work for road racing?

2. Has anyone tried 180 degree headers on an AMC V8 and what were the results?

1) Turns out Jim Paschal (NASCAR GT) used a similar design except he used 1 5/8 primary pipes and Jim got it to work well with the Cross Ram winning 7 out of 8 races. Most important he figured out you need to finish the race to win the race.

The Grace Billet on Jeff's headers create a venturi effect providing even more flow. Plus the Grace Billet eliminates the need for a  header gasket so there will be no issue blowing the gasket out and risking damage to the exhaust valve.

2) I have discussed the 180 deg. but I ended up thinking about having 2 sets of 2 into 1 on each side with a balance tube between each side so that would require 2 balance tubes. Penske did this on his Javelin but he had to modify the bell housing to allow one balance tube and the other was after the trans cross member. Allison also had some piping going on with his Hornet.


Edited by jtsllc1 - Nov/11/2019 at 5:21am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Boris Badanov Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov/09/2019 at 9:24am
Pretty job, but those collectors look a bit restrictive.
But they are eye candy for sure.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote amcenthusiast Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov/09/2019 at 9:17am
Hmm, savory brain food posted by jtsllc1 -thanks.

I couldn't tell by looking at the pics if the header pipes are high tech coated or chrome -thanks for taking no offense.

I was just reading EPI's article on exhaust system technology and found this quote which I thought was applicable to this discussion:

http://www.epi-eng.com/piston_engine_technology/exhaust_system_technology.htm

"Whenever the pressure wave encounters a change in cross-sectional area of the pipe, a reflected pressure wave is generated, which travels in the opposite direction"

...The man's an excellent technical writer and one of my favorite teachers for all his excellent explanations.

As far as the interplay between induction and scavenging systems on this drag race AMX, I'd say  there is more swirl flow designed into '66-'91 AMV8 cylinder heads than is commonly known.

I think D. Elgin (D. Elgin Racing cams) would enjoy cutting a cam for your engine. He knows AMV8 like nobody else because he attended an SAE speech given by AM engineer who designed '66-'91 AMV8 cylinder heads. (surprise-surprise) In my estimation, he's one of the few highly educated professional cam grinders who actually favors American Motors engines enough to  advocate their merits.  I'd say, he's the 'go to guy' in our AMC world right now if you need a cam cut specifically for your custom built engine.

https://elgincams.com/


'Grace Billet'? -Looking good!

More power to you. I'm always an admirer of your work with that AMX. Super cool/Love it.


Link to XRV8 Race Parts website: www.amcramblermarlin.1colony.com
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 74Bubblefender Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov/09/2019 at 7:25am
Beautiful work..really nice!!
We are just about to forge new AMC V8 crankshafts.. please check here
http://www.bulltear.com/forums/showthread.php?19564
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