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The quest for roller lifters

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Red Devil View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Red Devil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/16/2015 at 1:02pm
I'm running old Crane 86518 in stock lifter bores with a mild solid roller. Seems ok. Was looking for replacement lifters since the Crane's aren't available anymore and closest I've found is the GS Products 8618.

Basic specs:
> 0.75" wheel diameter
> pressurized oiling to wheel & bearing
> edge-orifice metering of oil to pushrod for better oil control
> nominal body diameter 0.9035" +/- 0.0003" but can custom grind to suit for special orders
> recommended 0.0020/0.0025” lifter-to-bore clearance
> cut-out for wheel approx. 0.495” vs. approx. 0.580” on Crane so should seal oil gallery better for reasonable lifts without needing bushed bores
> same pushrod seat height as Crane
> made in USA

Hope this helps, RD.

Basic comparison of Crane 86518 vs. GS Products 8618 based on measurements of Crane and dimensions from GS Products. Not 100% to scale, but gives an idea on wheel cut-out. Still considering a set of the GS lifters, but haven't heard if anyone's running them?



Edited by Red Devil - Jan/22/2015 at 5:48pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SKeown Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/16/2015 at 2:44pm
 
 Something worth noting: I tried Crane lifters with a std base circle cam and saw very erratic oil pressure fluctuation. This was due to the wheel cutouts exposing the oil galleys at max lift. With the engine on a stand and with the intake off I ran the oil pump with a drill while rotating the crank. What I saw was a 10 psi variation at different crank angles, and a wild needle fluctuation on the running engine.

 I also saw a lot of oil flowing around the Crane's. I then converted to Johnson lifters in non-bushed bores and that went away. I then had the bores bushed and switched to Comp lifters with the raised link bars (to allow for fatter pushrods), that gained me nothing oil pressure wise over the Johnson brand lifters. I handed over the Crane's to tsanchez and he had no problem with them with a reduced base circle cam that would produce .726 lift with 1.6 ratio rockers. I seriously doubt there is much difference between our two blocks as far as galley drilling?

 SKeown
 


Edited by SKeown - Jan/16/2015 at 3:01pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote imacarfan2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/22/2015 at 4:06pm
Great thread! Anyone else have any thoughts? I have a rather large Crane solid roller I might try in my strip motor. It's this one:


I need some roller lifters to go with it. Is the best bet having the lifter bores bushed then getting lifters to match or is something like the Johnson lifters good enough?

Oh, don't pay attention to what it says at the top of the Summit page next to the pic. That info is wrong. Scroll down and you'll see the correct specs for this cam. ;)


Edited by imacarfan2 - Jan/22/2015 at 4:12pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote uncljohn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan/24/2015 at 10:43pm
Originally posted by Boris Badanov Boris Badanov wrote:



I dial bore gauged all my bores and I remember (it is written down at the shop)
they were .9045, all of them within .0001 Not bad for a old worn block!
It may have been .9047... But they were the same, and I am impressed by
the machining AMC did on their engines. 


Just a comment, whether it has any bearing or not but it reflects thought. I do not build engines for drag racing, I build street motors and use cams that will work with OEM valve trains. This means that I also am not twisting them as tight as some of these are. A high lift cam does two things. One, it moves the valves further and faster inducing harmonics into parts that normally are not stressed that high, requiring stronger springs which alter loading on the Lifters and asociated parts. A given. But it does one other thing, it moves lifters further placing them in a mechanical position that they are not designed to run in. Much has been made about oil flow through and at lifters, but they are moving further in their bores than the design was intended to move in. What is to say that they are not also rocking in their bores more so then they were designed to do simply because they are moving further out and also possibly in.
I don't have lifter problems with my engines. But I stay with in the basic design parameters. I isnow and always has been that MOPAR small block lifters work in an AMC application providing the oil hole is spaced correctly. I don't know but I don't care whether I have used them or not, I have no problems. But I do not purchase a cam for over .500 lift and also do not intend to twist past 6000 rpm and then rarely.
But an equivalent situation would be a NASCAR push rod engine that will run rpms upwards of 8500 rpm + for a period of hours. I wonder what they do to get that done, and I suppose quite a bit. I do know thought that if I wanted to run that kind of rpm with that kind of reliability, a discarded running, for what ever reason including rules changing, NASCAR long block can be had for about the same price of rebuilding (seriously) an AMC V8 engine that has already solved the performance at high rpm problem. When MOPAR dropped out of racing there was smoking deals on fresh MOPAR engines at the time. I personally suspect that there is a stability problem with the lifters related to simply using them way beyond there design capability.
But what ever, those are my thoughts if any one cares.
Good luck on what ever is going on. I have a 232 to build and a 360 and then I think I will be done. I have been in this hobby since 1979 and it is time to back out a bit and enjoy what time I have left.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote amc7174 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar/21/2015 at 4:13pm
I recently came across a box of roller lifters marked for AMC but I'm not sure that's what they are. They measure .9045 and have the oil hole perpendicular to the axle. If I'm not mistaken, AMC lifters have the oil hole parallel to the axle. Any opinions on what I have? Would the oil hole being perpendicular to the axle have any detrimental effect? Thanks
Tom
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Boris Badanov Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar/22/2015 at 7:35am
It should have no effect, and the AMC outside diameter is desireable.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slate Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar/22/2015 at 10:14am
Originally posted by Red Devil Red Devil wrote:

I'm running old Crane 86518 in stock lifter bores with a mild solid roller. Seems ok. Was looking for replacement lifters since the Crane's aren't available anymore and closest I've found is the GS Products 8618.

Basic specs:
> 0.75" wheel diameter
> pressurized oiling to wheel & bearing
> edge-orifice metering of oil to pushrod for better oil control
> nominal body diameter 0.9035" +/- 0.0003" but can custom grind to suit for special orders
> recommended 0.0020/0.0025” lifter-to-bore clearance
> cut-out for wheel approx. 0.495” vs. approx. 0.580” on Crane so should seal oil gallery better for reasonable lifts without needing bushed bores
> same pushrod seat height as Crane
> made in USA

Hope this helps, RD.

Basic comparison of Crane 86518 vs. GS Products 8618 based on measurements of Crane and dimensions from GS Products. Not 100% to scale, but gives an idea on wheel cut-out. Still considering a set of the GS lifters, but haven't heard if anyone's running them?


If those are truly US made and someone can report back with a solid use report those are prettytempting at the price listed.


Steve
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Red Devil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Mar/23/2015 at 8:44am
Originally posted by amc7174 amc7174 wrote:

I recently came across a box of roller lifters marked for AMC but I'm not sure that's what they are. They measure .9045 and have the oil hole perpendicular to the axle. If I'm not mistaken, AMC lifters have the oil hole parallel to the axle. Any opinions on what I have? Would the oil hole being perpendicular to the axle have any detrimental effect? Thanks Tom

Depends if lifters use edge-orifice metering of oil to the pushrod seat (oil hole is in the upper band of main body – old Crane, GSP, Comp, etc.) or if they use a hole in the centre undercut (oil band) of the lifter body with an internal metering disc valve or orifice to the pushrod seat (Johnson solid rollers, most hydraulics).

If they use edge-orifice metering, you may get a fair bit more oil to the top end if the drilling is perpendicular to the lifter gallery and intersects the gallery when the lifter is on the base circle of the cam … if the lifter doesn’t have a secondary internal orifice to limit flow.

Edge-orifice metering is supposed to limit flow by relying on just the clearance between lifter body and bore, rather than being supplied directly from the gallery and metering internally. That's why old Crane solid rollers did a good job of limiting oil up top.

Note the picture below represents a Crane 86518 on the left (drilling parallel to the oil gallery) and on the right if the drilling was perpendicular to the gallery. The perpendicular drilling directly intersects the gallery, so would flow more on the base circle and at low lifts. The small hole in the body undercut provides pressurized oil from the gallery to the roller wheel & bearing.

Hope this helps, RD.


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