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TEMPERATURE CREEP AT SPEED |
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6768rogues
AMC Addicted Joined: Jul/03/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 6237 |
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You mentioned lots of new parts but I did not notice a new AC condenser. They restrict (and preheat) air to the radiator when they are clean and they restrict a whole lot more air when they are dirty. If it is partly plugged the fan could be pulling air through the radiator at slow speeds but not enough air is flowing at speed.
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Content intended for mature audiences. If you experience nausea or diarrhea, stop reading and seek medical attention.
Located usually near Rochester, NY and sometimes central FL. |
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uncljohn
AMC Addicted Joined: Jan/03/2013 Location: Peoria AZ Status: Offline Points: 5394 |
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Multiple sources rate the efficiency of an automobile alternator at about 60 to 70% Taking the lowest number as a working number and then determining an efficiency statement based on HP to drive the thing vs power needed to run a fan is straight forward. The application though is a variable. If this is deemed needed at a drag strip for what ever reason the most efficient fan is non at all. Mechanical if not there, and electrical turned off gives the most efficient system. Of course cooling the engine then becomes a function of need and time. But on the open road, where most people drive, the engine needs to be cooled going down the road, if it is not cooled properly for what ever reason the temperature will as stated Creep up and then the objective is to keep the engine from running in a too hot mode. And there are a number of means to do that. But reverting to the open road need of the most efficient way to cool the engine that being electric fans vs mechanical drive? Depends. As referred to earlier, there is plenty of data that says an OEM mechanical drive fan with a thermostatic clutch on it that disengages when it gets hot enough is the most efficient and cost effective approach in the long run and a flex fan is not far behind it. The only advantage an electric fan has is simply at a given running temperature, when heat gets to the thermostat control point, the fan is turned off. Thus no power is applied to turning it. The advantage? A powered mechanical fan at speed is in-efficient and actually serves as a wall when spinning that the moving air has to get around. Even at that, a clutch fan is still the most efficient. However what power is used to drive an electric fan. One member has two 18 amp fans mounted in a radiator shroud. That means that at 14VDC (the amount of voltage an alternator generally puts out) is 252 watts (VxA) plus 2 fans = 504 Watts. That is the power needed to supply these two fans. However an automobile alternator is about 60% efficient. so the engine would have to supply 1.12 Hp in order to run these fans. While that is not a lot, when turned off, it takes zero hp to cool the engine as in general the forward motion of the car supplies enough air moving through the radiator to cool the engine. So applying this to an automobile going down the interstate at 70mph, there is a spare 1.12 hp available that is not being used. That is the measure of efficiency. As to the water pump cavitating at 3000 rpm, it probably does. That is how it works. But two things, your car and I am assuming your street car has nominal gearing at the present, it might be geared for about 32 mph / 1000 rpm which in general most cars made today are geared around. If that is the case, your rpm at 70 mph is about 2,185 rpm well under the hypothetical 3000 rpm and yes the water pump is cavitating, But the theory behind FlowKooler water pumps is that cavitation is controlled better. The act of cavitating puts air bubbles into the kooling system creating hot spots through out the engine. Eliminate the hot spots and you have a better controlled cooling system. Todays modern cars use electric fans because engines are smaller and the hp loss is a greater % of the total available and turning off the fan is a smarter solution than clutch fan or a flex fan. Radiators are more efficient, transmissions use their own separate cooling systems but A/C still has a condenser sitting in front of the main radiator. Retrofitting any or all of this on a 30 to 50 year old antique car has to take into account the cost vs benefit ratio received by the builder. Running the engine hotter with more radiator cap pressure to keep from boiling is one approach. I prefer the colder thermostat that establishes minimum value for engine heat and more wiggle room between nominal operating temperature and the actual boiling point. A larger radiator, relocating transmission cooling systems, a flow kooler or similar high volume water pump and a 50/50 anti/freeze + a water wetter. And a higher pressure radiator cap with an over flow tank to keep the radiator full up to the very top. But it is over 100 degrees 1/3 of the year and today. And I will drive to Flagstaff in a snow storm. And this works for me, out on the highway with my AMC cars. |
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70 390 5spd Donohue
74 Hornet In restoration 76 Hornet, 5.7L Mercury Marine Power 80 Fuel Injected I6 Spirit 74 232 I-6, 4bbl, 270HL Isky Cam |
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Boris Badanov
AMC Addicted Joined: Dec/14/2013 Location: NH USA Status: Offline Points: 4209 |
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Cavitation bubbles should have a very short life, maybe measured in nanoseconds since
they are not air, they are steam. Not an opinion, just a fact. Any 1970's era cooling system will have some air in the coolant. But they do work pretty well. I suspect in this case the smoking gun is lack of free flowing air at at high speeds. IMO That shroud appears to me a bit to much. I still sense that there is something alse wrong. In a high performance application we dump a lot more heat under the hood. Heat stove crossovers over heat due to headers and early opening of exhaust valves. Headers dump a lot more heat under the hood than iron manifolds. High compression in itself increases the cooling system's heat load. |
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Gremlin Dreams
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mcjarv
Supporter of TheAMCForum Joined: Sep/12/2011 Location: Evansville/IN Status: Offline Points: 741 |
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Yea, the A/C condenser is also new, one of those aluminum ones from Ebay,,,,seems to work good I blow 35 degree air. Thanks, Mike
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1969 S/C Rogueler , |
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uncljohn
AMC Addicted Joined: Jan/03/2013 Location: Peoria AZ Status: Offline Points: 5394 |
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However, cavitation when it occurs decreases the efficiency of the water pumps capability of moving water through the system: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/er.1462/abstract As this occurs on a specific instance there is probably a number of circumstances all adding together to aggravate the situation A modified engine, even if it has been known to run well under street conditions with heavy modifications, Installed in a vehicle that it was not intended to be installed in, thus potentially adding more under hood temperature Questionable air flow through the radiator, a sustained engine rpm of 3100, high compression, state of tune and the list goes on. Some times with out a logical conclusion and it does not need a large V8 to highlight this problem. I fought a 1960 Plymouth with this years ago through three radiators and three variations of a leaning tower of power. The last being a much modified version of the Nascar engine. It started by replacing the NONE - OEM radiator that was in the car when I bought it with an OEM and ended by having a larger Radiator modified to fit. The OEM 6 cylinder radiator just flat did not work. The symptoms were the same and the assumption for some reason, air flow through the radiator. Why? Don't know. I was just happy to have it stop at the time. |
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70 390 5spd Donohue
74 Hornet In restoration 76 Hornet, 5.7L Mercury Marine Power 80 Fuel Injected I6 Spirit 74 232 I-6, 4bbl, 270HL Isky Cam |
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Wrambler
AMC Addicted Joined: Jul/02/2007 Location: West Virginia Status: Offline Points: 4199 |
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I know this is not apples to apples comparison by a long shot.
I would start by making up a nice pretty plate to seal the top of the radiator to the core support. That would force more air through the condensor and rad. I'm not seeing that shroud as an big issue. I have a fully shrouded single GM X car fan from the 80's on my American. It cools like nobodies business never gets above 185° unless dead stopped in traffic and then it takes a long time to hit 210° which is where I normally kick the fan on. We are talking 95° Ambient temps. Below that I almost never kick the fan on. It's a stock replacement 2 core 6cyl rad. Another trick I used years ago was a very simple 2" piece of aluminum sheet bent with a forward lip as a spoiler. It only covered the area directly below the radiator and was hard to even see as it was mounted to the bottom of the core support.. This alone dropped highway temps on a small block Fraud by close to 10° My 2¢ |
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Wrambler
69 AMC Rambler 4.0L, 5 speed 2015 Grand Cherokee Limited 2019 Chrysler 300 |
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Bill Mitchell
Supporter of TheAMCForum Joined: Jul/12/2011 Location: St Matthews, SC Status: Offline Points: 346 |
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I don't understand 220 degrees being considered hot. I have a performance V8 car with electric fan only from the factory. The fan comes on at 228 degrees and go off at 200 degrees. According to the owners manual the engine is not overheating until it reaches 255 degrees.
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Bill Mitchell
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mcjarv
Supporter of TheAMCForum Joined: Sep/12/2011 Location: Evansville/IN Status: Offline Points: 741 |
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Ken, I hear what your saying but like I said mounting THOSE fans to the radiator will be easier said than done because the fans themselves have a shroud that protrude to within 7/8" of the core. Go to Summit and search 16833 for a better picture of what I have,,,,,might watch the video also,,,,,I could cut the whole aluminum shroud down and bring the fan shrouds closer to the core but then I lose area cooling at slow speed,,,might not be an issue but ????? When I shopped these fans I thought no way in heck I would have a cooling problem but,,,,,,,,bottom line is the problem is not stopping me from enjoying the car and my intention is to methodically sneak up one "fix" at a time and solve it. Thanks Again everybody, all good ideas to be considered and I will post what worked for me when that day comes. Mike |
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1969 S/C Rogueler , |
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tyrodtom
AMC Addicted Joined: Sep/14/2007 Location: Virginia Status: Offline Points: 6213 |
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We often have heat problems in circle track cars.
I've went so far as to do string test, just to see what the airflow path is around a particular part of the car. You take masking tape and tape 6 in. lengths of white twine to where ever you want to investigate airflow. It's like a poor man's wind tunnel. Aircraft builders still use it. Tape several pieces of twine around the front end, and observe it on the road from another car. I suspect the whole grill area is a high pressure area, the engine compartment is so packed it slows air exiting from the engine compartment, if you can't get air out the back, it's difficult to get air in. I remember out west in the middle to late 60's, a lot of fast cars were running around with lots of shims, or washers under the rear hood bolts, that made the rear of the hood stick up 1-2 inches. On some cars at lower speeds, that aided getting the hot air out of the engine compartment, resulting in a cooler running engine. At higher speeds, especially on cars with a more upright windshields, it diverted air from the high pressure area at the base of the windshield to get cooler air to the carb area. But at the track, I've found like the above poster, Wrambler, a low mounted spoiler increases airflow thru the radiator core. That spoiler by itself means that in most races we don't even run the electric fan. Making sure any air that comes thru the grille goes thru the radiator core, and cannot be diverted around it. I seal with stainless steel tape every opening around the radiator core, the air has nowhere else to go, but thru the core. |
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66 American SW, 66 American 2dr, 82 J10, 70 Hornet, Pound, Va.
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mcjarv
Supporter of TheAMCForum Joined: Sep/12/2011 Location: Evansville/IN Status: Offline Points: 741 |
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Bill, I'm concerned because of the 40 degree spread,,,,,180 to 220,,,,,something doesn't seem right and it would be hard for me to have confidence in the car for a long haul. Mike
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1969 S/C Rogueler , |
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