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T35 (new rebuild but with problems) |
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pacerman
Supporter of TheAMCForum Joined: Jul/03/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 9060 |
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Posted: Aug/10/2017 at 5:42pm |
Ok, club members and I are working on the 62 Classic Club car (celebrity Rambler). The transmission has a fresh rebuild. It is still clean and nice and relatively dry outside for a Borg Warner T-35. The problem is that we can barely get any motion either in any of the Drives or Reverse setting with the engine running normally.
What we have done so far: Check fluid Level Checked and adjusted manual linkage from the pushbutton shifter Checked and adjusted the throttle cable (connection at the carb linkage) Check control pressure in the tranny through the port on the rear of the tranny. (100+ psi at fast idle) Looking at the hydraulic schematics in the TSM, I'm discounting the governor because it is not involved when the car is in Reverse and the symptoms are the same (slipping, reluctance to move) forward or reverse). Since it is a fresh rebuild and we don't know who did it, I am suspecting some of the problems which show up on nearly all the diagnostic lists, like missing or incorrectly installed tubes. I will probably drop the pan tomorrow and at least do a visual check. I hate to get into the valve body but that might be on the menu too. I will say that the linkages both shift and park were significantly out of adjustment so if a tranny shop overhauled the tranny and reinstalled it, there wasn't much attention to detail. Any tips or suggestions are appreciated. An old lister named calreeves had a thread about a T-35 with a fresh rebuild and similar problems but he did not ever post a solution to his problems but he tried the things I have mentioned above. Joe |
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Happiness is making something out of nothing.
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farna
Supporter of TheAMCForum Moderator Lost Dealership Project Joined: Jul/08/2007 Location: South Carolina Status: Offline Points: 19686 |
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Time to drop the pan and make sure everything is connected right. I'd check the band adjustments while in there, and probably go ahead and drop the valve body and clean it real good since fluid is drained and trans is open. The tubes are real important since they send fluid where it needs to be. The only other thing I can think of are the servo seals.
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Frank Swygert
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pacerman
Supporter of TheAMCForum Joined: Jul/03/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 9060 |
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I dropped the tranny pan today and the oil transfer tubes are all in place. I have not checked the torque on the valve body bolts yet. There is some debris on the front pump screen which sort of surprised me because the tranny is newly rebuilt.
What is meant by "sealing rings"? There are no such rings identified on the exploded view drawings although I think there are some o-rings here and there in the tranny.
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Happiness is making something out of nothing.
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farna
Supporter of TheAMCForum Moderator Lost Dealership Project Joined: Jul/08/2007 Location: South Carolina Status: Offline Points: 19686 |
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There are some rings that act as seals in the center support between the front and rear drums. They are much like piston rings. Can be hard to get into place without cracking when rebuilding the trans. I cracked one of the three (IIRC there is a stack of three) when I rebuilt one, but that didn't cause any issues. I don't know exactly what they seal off, so may not cause any pressure issues.
Debris in the screen could be from break-in of new clutches and such. I'd remove, disassemble, and thoroughly clean the valve body. A sticky valve or clogged passage is more likely the problem than anything else, assuming the clutches and bands have been replaced and adjusted. The o-rings in the servos can also be an issue in older trannys. relatively easy to replace the servo o-rings and clean VB once the pan is off. May as well check band adjustment with everything out of the way also. One band adjusts from outside the trans, the other with pan off. The outside one is the hardest to adjust because it's hard to reach and adjusts to a specific torque... AMC used a special tool, though you can do it with a regular torque wrench with trans on the bench out of the car. Make sure you blow high pressure air through all the VB passages. You really need an air compressor, not a spray can of cleaner or canned air. Wear a face shield or at least good goggles, as some of the passages are blind and stuff comes back out at you! Burns eyes, doesn't taste good either... |
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Frank Swygert
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pacerman
Supporter of TheAMCForum Joined: Jul/03/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 9060 |
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One other question: Is it possible to have adequate control pressure if the torque converter is bad? We have adequate control pressure as far as I can tell. Greater than 100 psi at 1000 rpm or so. We have not actually done the stall test, but I am pretty sure the tranny would fail that. Too much slippage. Joe
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Happiness is making something out of nothing.
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farna
Supporter of TheAMCForum Moderator Lost Dealership Project Joined: Jul/08/2007 Location: South Carolina Status: Offline Points: 19686 |
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Hmmm... I'm no trans expert, but it seems to me that the converter connects the engine to the trans, but the "snout" of the converter is connected to the converter body, which turns with the flexplate (crankshaft). This snout turns the front pump, as you have to have fluid pumping into the converter for it to work. Since the pump turns with the engine you should have control pressure, but an internally bad converter may not turn the trans.
Short answer: yes, you can have a bad converter and still have control pressure. |
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Frank Swygert
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vinny
Supporter of TheAMCForum Joined: Jan/05/2012 Location: Calgary Status: Offline Points: 2837 |
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I think you guys might have figured it out. Engine turns the pump but the converter has to turn the shaft. I am not sure what effect broken sealing rings around the sun gear shaft would have like whether pressure is measured before or after the rings.
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pacerman
Supporter of TheAMCForum Joined: Jul/03/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 9060 |
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Well a bit of the pig in a poke project car's history came to light yesterday. A previous custodian of the car revealed that the car had transmission troubles when the club members were working on it in the past and that it had three separate transmissions in it with no cure, same symptoms so they suspected the torque converter. I think it is good that we did the testing and adjustments we did,but now we are planning to remove the converter and have it rebuilt. Northwest Transmission parts said they could rebuild the converter which is a service that I did not know they offered.
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Happiness is making something out of nothing.
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Mopar_guy
Supporter of TheAMCForum Joined: Jun/07/2009 Location: Ohio Status: Offline Points: 4837 |
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You didn't mention if the car still drives and shifts but what I would suspect being bad is the stator on the convertor based on what I'm reading. The one way clutch in the stator is most likely bad allowing the stator to freewheel instead of being locked up. This kills the torque multiplication causing it to act like a slug on launch. It's rare that they fail but I've seen it before. It will still drive and shift but the launch is poor and requires a lot of throttle.
FWIW, the opposite effect if the stator was locked up would be the car launches great but wouldn't rev up to higher rpms easily and the trans would get extremely hot. If pushed hard, the engine can overheat as well. It's hard to diagnose. |
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"Hemilina" My 1973, 5.7 Hemi swapped Javelin |
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pacerman
Supporter of TheAMCForum Joined: Jul/03/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 9060 |
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Thanks for your input. The car will barely move even with a significant amount of throttle. We intend to pull the engine and remove the torque converter from the front of the tranny next week. On a 62 Classic, engine removal is pretty easy once the grille, readiator and front radiator supports are out of the way. Joe
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Happiness is making something out of nothing.
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