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swapping from 37 amp to 55 amp, direct swap?

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billd View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote billd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul/16/2017 at 9:19am
Quote Driving at night with lights and heater on is more load than the alternator can keep up with at idle on many cars. The headlights will visibly dim at idle as system voltage drops and current is drawn from the battery. 


So I'm going to ask - what college teaches that, these days?
And how many cars have pulled into your shop where you measured system output, loads, etc. and determined this to be the case??

I disagree a lot. Decades of experience with my own vehicles and hundreds of customer cars, plus college shows that if you see your headlights dim while running the heater, you need to have things checked out. If you know of many cars like this, send them my way, please!  
I can go out right now and start my Javelin with ORIGINAL wiring, original type headlights, and the original, untouched alternator - turn on the headlights, fire up the heater blower (and my car has AC so has a strong blower motor) and not see the gauge in the dash drop below either a slight charge or sitting at the null spot - center meaning no discharge. 
If your alternator isn't keeping up and you get say, a drop in voltage of about 1.3 you lose nearly 1/3 of your light output - THAT is noticeable. 

the folks posting in this thread aren't talking about a very slight discharge at idle, or voltage dropping back to battery rated voltage of 12.6 or so, they are talking more........... and in that case continuing that sort of operation is bad. 
The fellow with the bagged car and compressor and AC needs a larger alternator. 
Now the other with a 35 was simply asking if a 55 would be a direct fit - he's not got a problem, just wondering. If it's cheaper or even the same price, and there's ZERO work, no modifications needed, I'd guess - why not?

In any case to the thought that it's normal for things to not keep up on many cars -  no - lights and heater should not be too much - the factory accounted for that. If it's too much then you need to be checking things that have gotten old or worn. A slipping belt, glazed belt, worn brushes, weak diodes, wiring issues - poor connections, bad grounds, etc. 
Yes, you may notice a drop in headlight output as the system settles from the 14.5 it was putting out to the 13.5 it puts out at idle if you are loading things, that's because headlight output drops severely with voltage drop, but it should not be pulling from the battery at idle. If you are basing a comment on seeing lights dim -then yeah, even a slight dip will dim headlights with the inadequate 18 gauge factory wiring with single point of ground - but that's not alternator not keeping up.....

Here is why I mention that and suggest one does NOT use headlights as an indication but should use the volt meter or amp meter instead (headlights are not a great indication because they drop output severely as voltage drops)
Headlight output drops severely with decreased voltage. The drop in output is exponential, not linear.

10.5V : 510 lumens
11.0V : 597 lumens
11.5V : 695 lumens  <- A bit over 1 and a quarter volt drop and you reduce output by nearly 1/3 ?!
12.0V : 803 lumens
12.5V : 923 lumens
12.8V : 1000 lumens <- output rated at 12.8 volts
13.0V : 1054 lumens
13.5V : 1198 lumens
14.0V : 1356 lumens
14.5V : 1528 lumens


If you don't match the alternator with the load, or the load with the alternator, you will be taxing things beyond norms. 
On the other hand, if you have not added a constant or running load beyond factory and want a Summit 100 gigawatt wireless alternator simply because it's more - that's just as bad because it's not logical and is an emotional decision, based on being cool. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 304-dude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul/16/2017 at 11:22am
To make it simple. To operate below voltage requires more current. When things get hotter they require more current, until there is an equilibrium. Sometimes when a device runs too long at thermal runaway and is then operated at optimum, internally the components can be so stressed that by allowing full operational voltage will cause the failure.

Eventually in the end you will burn out the alternator or cause the battery to fail sooner than later. As when I had too much load for the smaller current alternators given to me over the counter. Until I removed the load, the smaller current alternator lived longer, and never needed replacement. All because I used more current than voltage during idle and below 1500 RPM.

Billd is correct in how lights, will be less effective when under volting by lack of output.

Sure, you can operate with little charge by using battery but the battery's main use is to start, and supply voltage when alternator output may drop under sudden load. But to operate long term, is not good for the complete electrical system.


Edited by 304-dude - Jul/16/2017 at 11:25am
71 Javelin SST body
390 69 crank, 70 block & heads
NASCAR SB2 rods & pistons
78 Jeep TH400 w/ 2.76 Low
50/50 Ford-AMC Suspension
79 F150 rear & 8.8 axles
Ford Racing 3.25 gears & 9" /w Detroit locker
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dogbone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul/16/2017 at 9:59pm
is there a way to test the voltage regulator, or after testing the alternator it's just a process of elimination?
64 Cross Country Wagon 770, 79 VW Scirocco, 70 Porsche 914-6, 82 Subaru Brat, 1991 Autozam
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote billd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul/16/2017 at 10:15pm
Pretty much a process of elimination but it should regulate to specified voltage without a load while at a fast idle. It varies slightly between the years and the state of battery charge AND the temperature under the hood can change the reading you get. (the regulators contain a thermistor that varies the voltage based on under-hood ambient air temp because it's harder to charge a cold battery, it regulates higher at certain temps)
You should see roughly mid-14s - I can check to see what that year and model regulator you have regulates at at specific air temps. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dogbone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul/17/2017 at 8:34pm
test results on my 64 wagon:

First test comparing voltage between the post and the orange wire on the alternator running at fast idle. There was a .9 difference in the voltage, so that's good.

Next I shorted the orange and the green on the voltage regulator connector. There was no spike to speak of in the voltage output. It did look like it was going up slowly, but no spike. Little if any change in the engine rpm.

Voltage across battery terminals at idle started out around 12.6, then slowly moved up to a little over 13. 12.6 is about what the battery was reading with the engine off.

Sounds kinda like my alternator is showing it's 50+ year old age.
64 Cross Country Wagon 770, 79 VW Scirocco, 70 Porsche 914-6, 82 Subaru Brat, 1991 Autozam
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dogbone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul/21/2017 at 10:18pm
Ordered the 51 amp alternator from Advance Auto. They were able to get it in next day. Hookup was basically the same as the original. Fast idle output was around 14.5-14.6 volts. After warm up regular idle I'm getting around 13 no load. With blower on high, A/C running and bright lights it drops down to 12.6 but comes up with a little throttle. I didn't run the air pump, but seems like it's going to work nicely. 

I haven't bought an alternator in a while so don't know if it's common place, but this one came with a spec sheet that I guess was generated during testing. I checked idle speed rpm of the alternator and it runs around 1650, that's with the engine running about 650 rpm.

Just wondering if the original output wire is sufficient for the added amperage?


 


Edited by dogbone - Jul/21/2017 at 10:24pm
64 Cross Country Wagon 770, 79 VW Scirocco, 70 Porsche 914-6, 82 Subaru Brat, 1991 Autozam
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vinny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul/21/2017 at 11:55pm
Depends if it is 12 or 10 gauge. If only 12 then put in 10 or 8.
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