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Steering Not Centered After Gear/Pitman Arm Work

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billd View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote billd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul/15/2018 at 7:35am
I had a car decades ago with a lot of wear and was told "your steering sector has too much play". Hey, here's a way to adjust that. Geesh, I was only about 15........... that was a lesson I learned and won't repeat that mistake. Of course I have since learned - besides experience on "don't do that" I went to school and learned WHY to not do certain things. My personality requires a why, not just "don't do that" and that's why it takes longer - if I am to do, or not to do something, it requires why, the whole background.
There are several reasons to not just pull a wheel, move it and center it, tomj outlined a big one.
Of course, some you can't do that with because the factory splines are not even all the way around - they index them in many cases, then there's the turns left to right being equal, and of course, masking the REAL reason things are off.
I hate band-aids - fix it, be safe, make the thing last, don't let something bite you in the butt later because you taped it together and left it that way. 
Also - as I keep saying - we have thousands of people hitting us to figure things out - members, non-members, lurkers, and when we say "just wire it together and it will be fine" we are spreading bad stuff instead of facts, ways to troubleshoot and actually fix things. 
This is a tech area, not the Red Green show LOL -  Harold, what did you do with my duct tape?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote farna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul/16/2018 at 5:58am
I agree with you guys -- find the problem and fix it first -- which is why I said take it to an alignment shop first. Sometimes the wheel has to come off and be reclocked because it's a 50 year old car and it's been off before -- and not necessarily been put back on right. If it drives right and is aligned correctly and the steering wheel still isn't clocked right it most likely has been removed and repositioned at some point, and that needs correcting. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tomj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul/17/2018 at 12:36am
it's not like this problem is limited to steering boxen. 50 years is a LONG TIME for a consumer product that gets patched and hacked and taped and glued and ignored and the radio turned up to cover the noise. i try to never assume anything and i'm constantly surprised. inexplicable weirdness like bolts that won't stay tight and needs strange magical attention.

you know it's old when a generator *bracket* breaks. not the little adjuster, but the big fat boring 1/4" chunk of steel bolted to the block.

my old Gemmer box was sloppy, when i rebuilt it in 2010, upon disassembly i found entirely completely wrong bushing in there. it the lost far past someone had rebuilt it, didn't have the right part but had a lathe, bored out the case and put what they had in there. it was well dont, but i ended up turning my own bushing to fit the now customized box. a whole world in a steering box.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stretch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug/14/2018 at 12:13pm
Originally posted by billd billd wrote:


If I remember correctly, with the steering wheel straight,  he said he had exactly the same number of turns left as he does right - meaning the steering wheel isn't "off", something else is.
Plus, the wheel was centered before the sector change, so likely he never had the wheel off just to change sector and/or pitman. So the wheel shouldn't be in question.
(the flex joint (some call "rag joint") parts are indexed, are they not? Meaning those can't be put back on incorrectly.......?)


I'm enjoying all the reading here, very educational. As with most things I do, this is taking me a while. I disconnected the pitman arm last week from the pitman shaft to check the splines. There isn't any visible difference in the way the new pitman arm is machined, so it's not that. Working back to the gear box itself and comparing to the old gearbox I noticed something. The old gearbox has about an extra 3/4 turn more than the new one. When I think back to driving the car with the old box, I'm almost positive that I could turn the steering wheel an extra quarter turn in one direction. And let me clarify, with the old gearbox out of the car and the studs/bolts on the coupling lined up horizontally where they would meet the intermediate shaft in a way that the steering wheel would sit straight, the gear still had that extra 1/4 turn in one direction.  

With the new gearbox installed and alignment untouched, the steering wheel was sitting exactly 90* off. So now I'm thinking perhaps the gear was rebuilt incorrectly, OR this new gear has that same extra 1/4 turn in it and I just installed the coupling wrong as I lined the new box up perfectly centered. But the gear should be centered...

Just to clarify (and I know this is dumb), when attaching the flexible coupling to the intermediate shaft, are the bolts supposed to go through the holes in the shaft, or the slots?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote purple72Gremlin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug/14/2018 at 5:47pm
Originally posted by billd billd wrote:


LOL - sorry, that's  cobble that's more likely to cause trouble than to fix anything. It ain't a fix. 
If a person pulls the steering wheel to "reclock", first, it isn't always possible because the splines are made to not allow that in many cases - for good reason.
But finally, you are throwing the steering sector off-center, there's a high-point to that box and moving the steering wheel means you have fewer turns, even if only by a FRACTION, one way than the other, and you run the steering sector in a place it was never intended to run.
I guess if I must, even though this has been discussed several other times over the years, I'll drag out books and spend time to show why the makers of steering equipment say "no, don't do that".
I know - a lot of shade-treers have done it over the years and say "what's the big deal, it works", it's just plain covering a PROBLEM and yeah, I mean problem, elsewhere, such as bent or damaged parts, incorrect parts and so on, again, it puts that sector in a place it wasn't intended to run going down the road. 
Early cars we used a punch to mark, but I've noted that many of the cars I've worked on lately, including my own, only went on one way - likely the factory fixed that issue with people simply moving the wheel to correct wear or damage.

Do whatever - it  isn't my car, but simply moving a wheel is possibly only covering something bad or wrong elsewhere.

If I remember correctly, with the steering wheel straight,  he said he had exactly the same number of turns left as he does right - meaning the steering wheel isn't "off", something else is.
Plus, the wheel was centered before the sector change, so likely he never had the wheel off just to change sector and/or pitman. So the wheel shouldn't be in question.
(the flex joint (some call "rag joint") parts are indexed, are they not? Meaning those can't be put back on incorrectly.......?)

pretty much here. I dont pull the wheel off to clock it been my experience that the rag joint is indexed one way. A good alignment shop will make the wheel centered, (I only go to the one shop). If your wheel is off....either something is bent or worn...or out of line...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote purple72Gremlin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug/14/2018 at 5:55pm
Originally posted by farna farna wrote:

I agree with you guys -- find the problem and fix it first -- which is why I said take it to an alignment shop first. Sometimes the wheel has to come off and be reclocked because it's a 50 year old car and it's been off before -- and not necessarily been put back on right. If it drives right and is aligned correctly and the steering wheel still isn't clocked right it most likely has been removed and repositioned at some point, and that needs correcting. 

On steering columns, the "center" is marked on the steering shaft. So pull the horn button, and you will see the mark. Just about all my cars were untouched.. I had the one car that was off. And that car was a mess. Basically was all screwed up beyond repair. It had been wrecked and it should have been totalled out, but it wasnt.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Trader Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug/15/2018 at 7:13am
You have changed the box and the pit-man and the steering wheel is now off center.
Did you just re-install the old rag joint?
I agree with all stated above, but think your rag joint or possibly that box was made for a universal joint is a place to look.
When changing boxes, as stated above you should drive the box lock to lock disconnected to center, ensure center of the pit-man arm, leave this in place and check the steering wheel and the joint to the box for alignment, fix any issues and then do an alignment.
The box center and pit-man center is not the place to "adjust".

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stretch Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug/15/2018 at 11:28am
Brand new flexible coupling, brand new pitman arm, rebuilt (not the original) steering box. With the new gear box centered lock-to-lock, and the steering wheel lined up, the wheels were too far off center to align. You're probably right about the box being incorrect. Pulling it off is my next step.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Trader Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug/15/2018 at 10:01pm
No, the linkage is not correct.
Think it through;
The original steering had the pit-man arm straight, steering wheel centered and the linkage for alignment.
If your steering wheel and pit-man arm are correct lock to lock, then the problem is with linkage.
There are many lengths of tie rod ends, and this is just a guess, but one or both of the tie rod ends are likely the problem.
Either this or some one swapped in parts from a different vehicle, i.e. small body vs large body AMC.
Find the part(s) that do not fit or be able to have adjustment with the pit-man centered. You solved your problem.
Now it's the search for the correct linkage.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FSJunkie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Aug/15/2018 at 11:44pm
Firstly, the steering wheel needs to be centered on the steering shaft so that the alignment marks on the wheel and the shaft line up. 

Secondly, the steering gearbox needs o be disconnected from the pittman arm, or alternatively the pittman arm from the center link, and the gearbox rotated lock-to-lock to find the center of it's travel. Center the gearbox. If the steering wheel is not level, then one of the steering column shaft joints to the gearbox needs to be realigned so that the gearbox, steering column shaft, and wheel are all centered together.

Thirdly, the center link and pittman arm are reconnected to the steering gearbox.

Fourthly, if the steering wheel needs to be cocked to one side for the car to drive straight, the tie rods will need to be adjusted so the car drives straight ahead with the steering wheel straight ahead.

That is the procedure to make sure everything is as it should be. 
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