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steering effort

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tomj View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tomj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/16/2018 at 12:03am
manual steering is sensitive to scrub angle, which is the first thing to go when wide wheels are installed without re-choosing the backspacing so that scrub angle is accommodated.  this link shows it pretty well:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrub_radius

with power steering you can pretty much ignore it, but depending on the combination of wide tires and spacers etc you could really feel it. the older cars with really skinny tires that always had manual steering, high box ratios and giant steering wheels were really easy to steer (but not much else).

the rest is taste i guess. i like the driving feel of manual boxes and don't mind the wrastlin'

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LakesideRamblin View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LakesideRamblin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/16/2018 at 2:01am
Love my manual steering (rebuilt my Saginaw box on my 69 Rambler - non-quick ratio) and all stock rebuilt suspension front and back. Feel the road baby with manual steering. Caveat, it is a personal preference.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote farna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/16/2018 at 7:35am
I think you are on the right track with the adjustable pressure valve. Then you can tune the steering to something you can live with, and easily change it for the type of driving you're doing. Going to a car show in the city? Dial in a little more pressure. Nice country twisty road drive? Dial it back some...  Near $100, but should be worth it. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Wrambler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/16/2018 at 10:05am
This works for saginaw pumps.
Take the high pressure hose off. There will be a valve and a spring under the big nut.
The pressure valve lives in there.
  Two ways to make it better, valve from a CJ. Or take one apart and save all the little shims sitting  under the nut on the end of the valve. Then take yours apart and add the spacers from valve one. snug it up good and fill it up with fluid and work the air out of the system.

I did this 15 years ago and that along with a 73 steering box have made my care pleasure to drive, its cheap, invisible and reversable

This works on any Saginaw box. Flaming river or one of the other aftermarket steering places sell a kit to drop the line pressure when running the high press saginaw pump with a ford rack

I'm running a Wrangler pump on my serpentine belted 4.0L it puts out around 800 psi verses the 1100 or so the other XJ boxes run. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote akimmet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/16/2018 at 11:00am
Pump pressure isn't the problem.

Alignment makes a big difference in steering effort. Try dialing in as much caster as possible with your trunions. Sadly the trunions usually prevent setting the caster high enough.

If an alignment doesn't help, look into an aftermarket upgraded steering box. Look for one with at least a .210" t-bar for a more modern car feel. The stock size is probably a tiny .165". Increasing the t-bar size is the correct way to increase steering effort in an integrated power steering box.

If you can afford it, a Delphi 600/670 box has a better spool valve design than the old Saginaw 800 boxes.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jav Dog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/16/2018 at 4:56pm
Is it possible to lessen the steering assist with a larger size pulley on the power steering pump?  Or does anyone make a pressure reducing kit for the Eaton power steering pumps?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote billd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/16/2018 at 6:54pm
Originally posted by tomj tomj wrote:

manual steering is sensitive to scrub angle, which is the first thing to go when wide wheels are installed without re-choosing the backspacing so that scrub angle is accommodated.  this link shows it pretty well:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrub_radius

with power steering you can pretty much ignore it, but depending on the combination of wide tires and spacers etc you could really feel it. the older cars with really skinny tires that always had manual steering, high box ratios and giant steering wheels were really easy to steer (but not much else).

the rest is taste i guess. i like the driving feel of manual boxes and don't mind the wrastlin'


Too bad that article, like so many in wikipedia, don't go into other very important areas. They ignore some of the other effects of the SAI vs tire center intersection - whether it's above or below the pavement, how much, how it impact brake steer and more.
The article isn't bad ........... as far as it goes but my fear is that it would lead some to make changes that just plain aren't safe. 

I sort of find this thread interesting as IMO, AMC power steering was the least easy steering of that era.
If you have the power steering on your AMC - you need to go drive a Plymouth of the same era! NO ROAD FEEL AT ALL.
I hated mid and full-size MOPAR PS back then. A butterfly could land on the steering wheel and send you off the road.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sonic Silver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/16/2018 at 7:25pm
Originally posted by billd billd wrote:

Originally posted by tomj tomj wrote:

manual steering is sensitive to scrub angle, which is the first thing to go when wide wheels are installed without re-choosing the backspacing so that scrub angle is accommodated.  this link shows it pretty well:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrub_radius

with power steering you can pretty much ignore it, but depending on the combination of wide tires and spacers etc you could really feel it. the older cars with really skinny tires that always had manual steering, high box ratios and giant steering wheels were really easy to steer (but not much else).

the rest is taste i guess. i like the driving feel of manual boxes and don't mind the wrastlin'


Too bad that article, like so many in wikipedia, don't go into other very important areas. They ignore some of the other effects of the SAI vs tire center intersection - whether it's above or below the pavement, how much, how it impact brake steer and more.
The article isn't bad ........... as far as it goes but my fear is that it would lead some to make changes that just plain aren't safe. 

I sort of find this thread interesting as IMO, AMC power steering was the least easy steering of that era.
If you have the power steering on your AMC - you need to go drive a Plymouth of the same era! NO ROAD FEEL AT ALL.
I hated mid and full-size MOPAR PS back then. A butterfly could land on the steering wheel and send you off the road.
I agree that Mopar was the worst, however Ford wasn't much better. I would put AMC and GM on about the same level. Firebirds, Camaros, 442's, etc weren't bad.
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billd View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote billd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/16/2018 at 8:01pm
I concur......
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote purple72Gremlin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr/16/2018 at 8:30pm
Originally posted by Sonic Silver Sonic Silver wrote:

Originally posted by billd billd wrote:

Originally posted by tomj tomj wrote:

manual steering is sensitive to scrub angle, which is the first thing to go when wide wheels are installed without re-choosing the backspacing so that scrub angle is accommodated.  this link shows it pretty well:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrub_radius

with power steering you can pretty much ignore it, but depending on the combination of wide tires and spacers etc you could really feel it. the older cars with really skinny tires that always had manual steering, high box ratios and giant steering wheels were really easy to steer (but not much else).

the rest is taste i guess. i like the driving feel of manual boxes and don't mind the wrastlin'


Too bad that article, like so many in wikipedia, don't go into other very important areas. They ignore some of the other effects of the SAI vs tire center intersection - whether it's above or below the pavement, how much, how it impact brake steer and more.
The article isn't bad ........... as far as it goes but my fear is that it would lead some to make changes that just plain aren't safe. 

I sort of find this thread interesting as IMO, AMC power steering was the least easy steering of that era.
If you have the power steering on your AMC - you need to go drive a Plymouth of the same era! NO ROAD FEEL AT ALL.
I hated mid and full-size MOPAR PS back then. A butterfly could land on the steering wheel and send you off the road.
I agree that Mopar was the worst, however Ford wasn't much better. I would put AMC and GM on about the same level. Firebirds, Camaros, 442's, etc weren't bad.
I remember the Fords and mopar being the worse for steering.....
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