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starting problems
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poormansMACHINE View Drop Down
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Points: 12357 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote poormansMACHINE Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov/23/2007 at 1:19pm
Originally posted by WiSeNhEiMeR WiSeNhEiMeR wrote:

Originally posted by poormansMACHINE poormansMACHINE wrote:

How did "needs ether to start" turn into a need for an ignition upgrade?
 
Just a thought --- ether ignites "easier" than gasoline ... so getting a better SPARK might be the trick ...
 
Of course other factors, like poor compression, from leaky piston rings, or an engine in need of a VALVE JOB will sometimes "start on ether" but not start on gas ... the ether just pushes the feeble spark or oily, or "loose" combustion chamber into a viable environment ... another problem could be a weak starter motor ... if the engine isn't spinning itself around fast enough, sometimes the CAM's overlap will artificially lower the compression ratio enough to instill the hard or NO starting symptom.
 
NOT solutions --- only other possible items to check off your "punch list"
 
WiSeNhEiMeR

And then again, a carb problem is still a carb problem.
 
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matty 401 View Drop Down
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stupid question     GOT GAS  Embarrassed

Edited by matty 401 - Nov/23/2007 at 1:23pm
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poormansMACHINE View Drop Down
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Originally posted by matty 401 matty 401 wrote:

stupid question     GOT GAS  Embarrassed

After yesterday? You bet!
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jimmhuth View Drop Down
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the car has plenty of gas. from the looks of it im going to have to rebuild my first carb
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WiSeNhEiMeR View Drop Down
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Maybe NOT even an entire REBUILD Kit
 
The item that produces that little stream of gasoline is called an ACCELERATOR PUMP (diaphram)
 
The quick fix would be to replace that individual item and see if it solves your problem (or at least that part of your problem ... )
 
a complete rebuilt requires removing the carb from the vehicle and, ideally, soaking it clean inside & out in GUNK or CARB CLEANER, then reassebling it by the book and adjusting EVERYTHING - a pretty detailed task, when all you "might" need is a replacement "diaphram" ...
 
BUT
 
Replacing a leaky or torn accelerator pump diaphram, if you are lucky, just involves loosening a few screws and removing the old, torn or otherwise "compromised" item, and replacing it with a new one ... carb left attached to engine ...
 
Let us know the EXTENT of your FIX
 
WiSeNhEiMeR


Edited by WiSeNhEiMeR - Nov/25/2007 at 12:19am
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billd View Drop Down
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Points: 22779 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote billd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov/25/2007 at 2:49am
>>
Just a thought --- ether ignites "easier" than gasoline ... so getting a better SPARK might be the trick ...
 
Of course other factors, like poor compression, from leaky piston rings, or an engine in need of a VALVE JOB will sometimes "start on ether" but not start on gas ... <<
 
YUP. Saw my share of little 4-poppers in the 70's and 80's that got towed on in cold Iowa days. They'd start on ether and not gas. A couple cars, they were regulars, a change of plugs and off they went. WEIRD.  We did a he^^ of a business on winter days, the wrecker was kept busy and at times, we had the shop stacked double and were working on them in the alley. Well, being alonside I80 helped, too.
HOWEVER, the electronic swap as a fix for symptoms that COULD be solved by making the original system work as intended. Too many people can't work well with the standard points and coil, so we simply said "swap to electronic, that will solve your problems" instead of trying to turn a non-tech person into someone who knew what they were doing. Just like now they perform micro-surgery to reattach limbs where in the past they'd amputate - sometimes the best fix is to not even TRY to educate them, just pull that old system, they were never any good anyway, and go electronic.
Me, OTOH, ANYTHING is fixable if I want..... (as witnessed by the collection of stuff I've resurrected in my shop) I'll make 'em start and run on a Model T system.

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purple72Gremlin View Drop Down
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Originally posted by billd billd wrote:

>>
Just a thought --- ether ignites "easier" than gasoline ... so getting a better SPARK might be the trick ...
 
Of course other factors, like poor compression, from leaky piston rings, or an engine in need of a VALVE JOB will sometimes "start on ether" but not start on gas ... <<
 
YUP. Saw my share of little 4-poppers in the 70's and 80's that got towed on in cold Iowa days. They'd start on ether and not gas. A couple cars, they were regulars, a change of plugs and off they went. WEIRD.  We did a he^^ of a business on winter days, the wrecker was kept busy and at times, we had the shop stacked double and were working on them in the alley. Well, being alonside I80 helped, too.
HOWEVER, the electronic swap as a fix for symptoms that COULD be solved by making the original system work as intended. Too many people can't work well with the standard points and coil, so we simply said "swap to electronic, that will solve your problems" instead of trying to turn a non-tech person into someone who knew what they were doing. Just like now they perform micro-surgery to reattach limbs where in the past they'd amputate - sometimes the best fix is to not even TRY to educate them, just pull that old system, they were never any good anyway, and go electronic.
Me, OTOH, ANYTHING is fixable if I want..... (as witnessed by the collection of stuff I've resurrected in my shop) I'll make 'em start and run on a Model T system.
 
I remember that.........4 cylinders with points.....  in actuallity, if you wanted that 4 cylinder to run well, well anything with points, I have found in my case,  change the points every 5000 miles...... I'll never forget my first car with electronic ignition........beats points any day!  However, my Gremlin still has points...........undicided as to whether I'll keep that Delco Remy distributorUnhappy
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bigbad69 View Drop Down
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Points: 3662 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bigbad69 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov/25/2007 at 3:08am
Changing to a electronic distributor is not a bad idea, but the first approach to solving a problem should not be to replace a working part. That only adds to the unknowns. You begin with a car a doesn't start, change the distributor, and the car still doesn't start. Now you have two unknowns because there may be a problem with the distributor as well. That makes it even more difficult to diagnose the original problem.

It sounds to me like the problem is with the accelerator pump as stated above. Get the carb working properly first, then worry about electronic conversion.

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billd View Drop Down
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Points: 22779 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote billd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov/25/2007 at 3:14am
I wouldn't even worry about electronic conversion.......... as stated, fix the issues first, when it's working as it should, starting, running, etc. then change it. That way if you have a problem with or after the conversion, you know where it is!
However, an accelator pump should not prevent a car from starting. Might make it a bit more difficult, but it should start on choke alone. Push the pedal a time or two to set the choke, and it should start just by turning the key, even if you weren't in the car to even touch the pedal.
If changing the accel pump allows it to start better, then you STILL have another problem.
Ideally:
You could open the hood, pull the throttle cable back enough to allow the choke to close, reach in and crank it - it should start and keep running.
If not, then other systems aren't 100%.

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poormansMACHINE View Drop Down
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Originally posted by bigbad69 bigbad69 wrote:

Changing to a electronic distributor is not a bad idea, .... Get the carb working properly first, then worry about electronic conversion.


It's a Motorcraft electronic already.
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