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Rod knocking 196

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Rambler Dan View Drop Down
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    Posted: Dec/13/2017 at 12:07pm
59 rambler cross country wagon custom (Big car not the American)
196 ohv, 2 barrel carb, factory AC
pushomatic auto trans

So Ive got what sounds like to me a pretty significant rod knock in the new to me 59 wagon project I picked up.  Its been sitting since the early 90's and I just picked up the project a month or so ago.  Got it running last weekend for the first time in 25 yrs and a rod is banging away like a storm door in a hurricane. 
supposedly the motor was rebuilt in the early 90's before the previous owner passed away, but never fired or ran. 
I spent a bunch of time setting valve clearances, torqued the head and other things I could do from the exterior before I fired it.
so my question is as I am pulling the motor what are other motors that will bolt up to the trans and drop in on the mounts?  Is it worth a full rebuild on a 196?  approx cost?  Ive had other motors done but usually inline 4s out of british sports cars.   I may get lucky and just have one offending rod bearing but i dont know yet.   I would like to stay Amc and not do and entire drive line swap.

I have access to a used, 50k miles, but running well when pulled 258 out of a jeep gladiator..  not sure what route I want to take yet just looking for some other opinions on people who have been down the same road. 




Edited by Rambler Dan - Dec/13/2017 at 12:25pm
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purple72Gremlin View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote purple72Gremlin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec/13/2017 at 12:23pm
A 196. Is the only engine that will bolt in. Others can be made to fit, but nothing else will bolt in
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pacerman View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pacerman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec/13/2017 at 6:20pm
You can pull the oil pan with the engine in the car and then check for a loose rod. That's what I would do.

Joe
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Rambler Dan View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rambler Dan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec/13/2017 at 10:38pm
Ok. I was under the understanding that other amc straight 6s and some v8 would bolt to the bell housing and fit on the mounts..

As far as pulling the pan while in teh car the suspension cross member looks to be in the way not sure if the pan will come off... would I loosen and lift the engine slightly?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tomj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec/13/2017 at 11:30pm
i would immediately stop running that engine for any reason whatsoever. if it "only" needs a teardown you'll be lucky enough, if you break hard parts you make a hard job very very difficult. 

it is very likely the bearings are eaten down to the backing and it's eating into the crank journals. now it needs to be turned and new bearings fit. i'd stop before parts exit the block.

"bolts onto the bell" isn't enough to make a practical swap. pre-72 232's will do that, but nothing else. it's nearly 6" longer than the very short 195.6. not sure about the '59 big car, is it a four-point mount like the small car? are the front engine mounts up near the radiator? or on the front cross-member (if it has one).

also unless you find a pre-72 199/232 that's been rebuilt in someone's living memory, *it* will need a teardown, too.

i don't mean to be negative, only realistic.  all of these engines are very old antiques. the 195.6 you have you know fits. pretty much all rebuild parts are available. as a guess, the 195.6 will cost a couple hundred more than a 232 to build, parts are harder to find, but also they are more likely to need replacing.

all of the problems inherent in that older engine are now all very well known and all are dealable. cooling and head sealing simply require HIGH QUALITY deck machine work -- not a typical belt-sander job. the hardest part will be (1) finding a shop willing to take the time to do good work (2) sadly, paying for it.


1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto
1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5
http://www.ramblerLore.com

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Rambler Dan View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rambler Dan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec/14/2017 at 6:39am
Great knowledge and advice Thank you.   I am relatively new to the amc world and am doing alot of learning. On my watch the motor has run less total than 2 min in 4 or 5 20 sec intervals. My next step is to make sure the Trans works ok before I pull the motor. Don't want to dump money in a motor if I have a trans issue as well.

We have a very good machine/rebuild shop about a mile from my house where all my british motors go and I have spoken to him already and he's familiar with the amc 196 motor

As far swap I'd rather not I'd rather put the 196 back in but I fig I had some access to other motors and if was easy enough.

But motor is going to come out or I'll drop the pan this weekend and see what I can find out. I noticed the freeze plug on the back of the head is weeping a little as well so I might just pull the motor...

Thanks again this board has been a great tool so far in learning about these cars/motors
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tomj View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tomj Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec/14/2017 at 10:48pm
Originally posted by Rambler Dan Rambler Dan wrote:

We have a very good machine/rebuild shop about a mile from my house where all my british motors go and I have spoken to him already and he's familiar with the amc 196 motor

that is VERY GOOD -- both the patience for brit motors and the 196 experience. 


Quote As far swap I'd rather not I'd rather put the 196 back in

what's your thinking? in spite of it's shortcomings it's a fine motor and can be made to run very reliably. there's not a ton of horsepower available but there is a ton of torque! i'm enjoying the crap out of my 195.6 OHV, and you have bragging rights -- no one will have one or even seen one.

(if you go this far, the limiting performance-mod for this engine is utter unavailability of aftermarket cams -- but we recently verified that the FLATHEAD 195.6 cam has more metal available to re-grind than the correct cam does -- meaning you could get more lift or a different grind fairly easily.)

[AUOTE]But motor is going to come out or I'll drop the pan this weekend and see what I can find out. I noticed the freeze plug on the back of the head is weeping a little as well so I might just pull the motor...[/QUOTE]

i wish you luck there, that your hard parts are still good. all in all it's not gonna be much more to rebuild the 195.6 OHV than it will to build an equiv. 232. it's all in the machine work and care and assembly. gaskets, kits, parts, etc, are all available.

what are your plans for the car? occasional sunday drive? long term restoration? daily driver? how much do you care, relistically, about endurance, power, etc? everything's open if you're clear on goals etc.

i assume you have an automatic? i hope so because the manual (T96) sucks :-) the automatic is a fine thing. not exciting, 3-speed, but solid and reliable and still rebuildable today. i'm assuming you have the Borg Warner, if its the older Hydramatic then i'm out of the loop.

1960 Rambler Super two-door wagon, OHV auto
1961 Roadster American, 195.6 OHV, T5
http://www.ramblerLore.com

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Rambler Dan View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rambler Dan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec/15/2017 at 11:14am

Quote As far swap I'd rather not I'd rather put the 196 back in

Quote what's your thinking? in spite of it's shortcomings it's a fine motor and can be made to run very reliably. there's not a ton of horsepower available but there is a ton of torque! i'm enjoying the crap out of my 195.6 OHV, and you have bragging rights -- no one will have one or even seen one.

(if you go this far, the limiting performance-mod for this engine is utter unavailability of aftermarket cams -- but we recently verified that the FLATHEAD 195.6 cam has more metal available to re-grind than the correct cam does -- meaning you could get more lift or a different grind fairly easily.)

Tom I think I have caused some confusion with the way I worded that I would rather not swap a motor I would prefer to stick with the original..


Quote what are your plans for the car? occasional sunday drive? long term restoration? daily driver? how much do you care, relistically, about endurance, power, etc? everything's open if you're clear on goals etc.

My goal is to make a decent daily driver for the summer..  My main goal is to have something mostly reliable, Remember much of my background is british sports cars, so reliable is a loose term.  Big smile
It will not be a bone stock resto - It is a cali car that is  solid so my plan is to get it back on the road, redo the interior and keep drive train, suspension, running gear as stock as possible.. with the exception of lowering the car a little..

Quote i assume you have an automatic? i hope so because the manual (T96) sucks :-) the automatic is a fine thing. not exciting, 3-speed, but solid and reliable and still rebuildable today. i'm assuming you have the Borg Warner, if its the older Hydramatic then i'm out of the loop.

Yes I have the push button auto..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pacerman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec/15/2017 at 11:35am
Dan,

There is a rebuilt 196 short block on craigslist at:
https://yakima.craigslist.org/pts/d/rebuilt-196cuinshort-block/6409991835.html

You would need to check if it came from a flathead or and OHV engine. If a flathead, the cam is incorrect.  It is sitting on the crankbutt end in the pictures so it probably has the flat crank. That is good because the volcano butt crank used with some standard transmissions will not work for you.  If the seller is willing he could strap it to a pallet and send it to you for about $100.  I know it is a pig in a poke but might be cheaper (if not as good) as doing the machine work on your own block.  Whether you go this route or not (keep your own internals) I would check to see how much your block has been bored already and get your cylinder head checked for cracks before committing to keep your current engine.  Do not start the project without a good cylinder head in hand.  I might have another engine for you if you need it, but I am in California.  Joe
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote First_Gear Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Dec/15/2017 at 1:32pm
Originally posted by pacerman pacerman wrote:

Dan,

There is a rebuilt 196 short block on craigslist at:
https://yakima.craigslist.org/pts/d/rebuilt-196cuinshort-block/6409991835.html

You would need to check if it came from a flathead or and OHV engine. If a flathead, the cam is incorrect.  It is sitting on the crankbutt end in the pictures so it probably has the flat crank. That is good because the volcano butt crank used with some standard transmissions will not work for you.  If the seller is willing he could strap it to a pallet and send it to you for about $100.  I know it is a pig in a poke but might be cheaper (if not as good) as doing the machine work on your own block.  Whether you go this route or not (keep your own internals) I would check to see how much your block has been bored already and get your cylinder head checked for cracks before committing to keep your current engine.  Do not start the project without a good cylinder head in hand.  I might have another engine for you if you need it, but I am in California.  Joe

By random chance my mother lives in yakima. If anyone wants this I could easily help you out next time I'm visiting her. Just shoot me a PM.
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