TheAMCForum.com Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > The Garage > AMC V8 Engine Repair and Modifications
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Rod Knock on startup
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Click for TheAMCForum Rules / Click for PDF version of Forum Rules
Your donations help keep this valuable resource free and growing. Thank you.

Rod Knock on startup

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <123>
Author
Message
timoboy View Drop Down
AMC Nut
AMC Nut
Avatar

Joined: Oct/27/2008
Location: San Diego, CA
Status: Offline
Points: 394
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote timoboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/27/2011 at 2:11am
No I am not in Denial, just never really have that much experience with these type of issues before, and as such of course I am going to try less drastic measures first, then pull and tear into the engine later, seems pretty logical to me. That said I do really appreciate your posts and experience, now I have an idea for what I am up against. Keep in mind I am not like most of you guys who have owned 200 cars and torn into 2000 engines in your lifetimes, you gotta start somewhere and rather than jump into the tuner scene, I choose this route. I don't have a shop at my home, I don't have a machine shop that gives me decent or even semi fair prices, I don't know a ton of people in the industry. But did you guys right when you bought your first project car?  If people in my generation such as myself get scared away from the hobby then it will not be around any longer so I am not easily phased. Sure there are plenty of guys that grumble and dismiss me as some stupid kid, but there are also a heck of a lot of people who dismiss AMCs as 2nd rate junk and I would like to at least show that our cars deserve a 2nd look. Between the renewed intrest in AMCs as well as the passing of those that grew up with preconceived notions about the company, I see a really good chance of this happening.

I'll start saving up for new heads for my rebuilt 360 short block, kinda sad this well maintained stock engine is "done" after only 60k,  Anyhow anyone have a set ready to bolt on they would be willing to sell? The only shop in town wants $1200 to rebuild mine with zero performance modifications, reusing my valves and springs. Man I would kill to have a machine shop that charges reasonable rates. I have been reading that stock rebuild should be $400 a head tops.

Until then I am going to keep driving it about 10 miles per week. Ohio AMX I was thinking Lucas as well, and possibly marvel oil, thank you for the positive advice. Just talked to a pretty knowledgeable AMC club buddy of mine who has been doing this longer than I have been alive and he said his humpster had been doing this for years, he knows it is the bearings,  but only being a 360 which he has plenty of, he continues to drive as a Sunday cruiser, just as I do with mine.


Edited by timoboy - Feb/27/2011 at 2:34am
Back to Top
A-Sedan View Drop Down
AMC Apprentice
AMC Apprentice
Avatar

Joined: Jul/02/2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 55
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote A-Sedan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/27/2011 at 6:32am
When I first got in to AMCs I had a 290 that would click the lifters and sometimes get a rod knock on startup. I was going to tear it down to fix the problem but remembering my V6 Buick days with the same  kind of start up problems, before they changed the oil filters to put a good drain back valve in them, I changed the oil filter and no more problems. You may very well have an issue with bearing clearances but first try the filter, it may suprise you or not, don't know till you try. This advice comes from more than 40 years of experience not to say I know it all but I learned from some of the best and they always said to try the simple things first. I doubt Lucas or Marvel will do much so try the filter before you spend your money on them. BTW I am not pushing AC filters for any reason other than they work.
Back to Top
Ken_Parkman View Drop Down
AMC Nut
AMC Nut


Joined: Jun/04/2009
Location: Ontario
Status: Offline
Points: 436
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ken_Parkman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/27/2011 at 7:42am
It's most likely the filter. Due to the filter direction it will drain if the drain valve in the filter is no good, and unfortunately most are no good. It does not seem to hurt much to have some rod knock on start, but it drives me absolutely insane listening to that horrible noise. I prefer to run the long filter, but I can't find one with a quality drain valve. The Napa long filter does not even have a valve. I've had one short Napa gold filter (the first one I tried) that actually had a functioning valve and all the cold start rod knock went away. Have not had a good one since. Have not tried the AC, but others seem to have had better experience.

The next plan is to change the threaded adapter to be able to fun a Ford style filter to try and find a long filter with a valve that works.

Another thing to note as most filters drain on sitting for a while the oil level reads higher than it really is. Start the car and run it for a few minutes before checking the oil level.
Back to Top
gmonde View Drop Down
AMC Apprentice
AMC Apprentice
Avatar

Joined: Jul/06/2010
Location: unionville
Status: Offline
Points: 43
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gmonde Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/27/2011 at 8:50am
Originally posted by Ken_Parkman Ken_Parkman wrote:

It's most likely the filter. Due to the filter direction it will drain if the drain valve in the filter is no good, and unfortunately most are no good. It does not seem to hurt much to have some rod knock on start, but it drives me absolutely insane listening to that horrible noise. I prefer to run the long filter, but I can't find one with a quality drain valve. The Napa long filter does not even have a valve. I've had one short Napa gold filter (the first one I tried) that actually had a functioning valve and all the cold start rod knock went away. Have not had a good one since. Have not tried the AC, but others seem to have had better experience.

The next plan is to change the threaded adapter to be able to fun a Ford style filter to try and find a long filter with a valve that works.

Another thing to note as most filters drain on sitting for a while the oil level reads higher than it really is. Start the car and run it for a few minutes before checking the oil level.
 
just to add to kens post ,the rod knock just didnt happen over night ,once the oil siphons back into the pan after sitting for a while there is no oil in half the pick up tube,oil galley in the block to the pump,oil filter,and up to the pump gears .now on start up the engine has to pull the oil back thru pick side ,this can take a second or two to do this and thats how long there is no oil presure  dry bearing s    gstock
Gmonde
www.gmondeperformance.com
1970 rebel machine G/SA
11.23 @ 116.00
Back to Top
amx39068 View Drop Down
Supporter of TheAMCForum
Supporter of TheAMCForum
Avatar

Joined: Feb/21/2008
Location: Arizona
Status: Offline
Points: 11637
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote amx39068 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/27/2011 at 9:34am

Old engines make more noises than new ones particularly when letting them sit for extended periods of time before being started.  If you want to avoid a rod knock upon startup after sitting, pull the coil wire and cranke for 30 seconds to build some oil pressure and the reinstall the coil wire and fire it up.

I used to use STP on all my older engines and have even used slick 50 on and off since the 90s, both of which leave a longer lasting coating of lubricant on engine parts albeit with the former making the oil much thicker which is not good for really cold starts.
 
People love or hate additives but I have never lost a bearing in now a full 40 years of AMC performance engine ownership with nearly 2/3 of that time living in the northeast where the cars would sometimes sit for 30 days in a garage in the really crappy and frigid weather.  After sitting for a long time in the miserable cold weather, they make all kinds of unpleasants sounds when you first start them up. 
Dan Curtis, AZ AMC Collector Quality Restorations & Parts - amcmusclecars.com
Back to Top
bigbad69 View Drop Down
Supporter of TheAMCForum
Supporter of TheAMCForum
Avatar

Joined: Jul/02/2007
Location: Ottawa, Ont.
Status: Offline
Points: 3736
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bigbad69 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/27/2011 at 10:38am
Originally posted by Fluffy73 Fluffy73 wrote:

My 360 in my Javelin does this too.  I attribute it to just being a high mileage engine.   Except I would never run anything as thin as 10w30.  I'm usually running 20w-50 in my Javelin, but it's also strictly a summer cruiser.
IMO, running thicker oil is what is causing your knock. It takes longer for thicker oil to fully distribute throughout the engine, hence the knock on start up. Most engine wear occurs on start up because the oil hasn't had time to circulate yet. Using thicker oil can delay oil pressure build up causing the engine to run longer without proper protection. Think about it. If you load a syringe with water, it's easy to push it out. Now load it with peanut butter and try to push it out as fast as you did the water. In the March HMM, Ray Bohacz has an interesting commentary on the common "wisdom" of using heavy weight oils.

As has been previously stated in this thread, if your rods are knocking, it's only a matter of time before the engine fails. If this were a daily driver and you wanted to get one more year out of it before sending it the bone yard, then it makes sense to drive it like this. For a car that is essentially a toy that you drive infrequently and plan to keep, why put off the rebuild? Delaying will only cause more damage making the rebuild more expensive.

You can try changing the filter as suggested since it is a cheap experiment, but snake oil only masks the symptoms, it won't fix your engine.

69 BBO Javelin 390 T10
"The Neverending Project"
Back to Top
SEdmonds View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar

Joined: Jun/21/2009
Location: Arizona
Status: Offline
Points: 6790
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SEdmonds Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/27/2011 at 10:50am
Originally posted by amx39068 amx39068 wrote:

After sitting for a long time in the miserable cold weather, they make all kinds of unpleasants sounds when you first start them up. 

I resemble that remark.....
Sorry - off topic - but this made me laugh this morning...as I watch it snow and blow outside - here in sunny, tropical Flagstaff.
 
Back to Top
whizkidder View Drop Down
Supporter of TheAMCForum
Supporter of TheAMCForum


Joined: Mar/03/2008
Location: North Georgia
Status: Offline
Points: 2973
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote whizkidder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/27/2011 at 10:52am
Originally posted by SEdmonds SEdmonds wrote:

Originally posted by amx39068 amx39068 wrote:

After sitting for a long time in the miserable cold weather, they make all kinds of unpleasants sounds when you first start them up. 

I resemble that remark.....
Sorry - off topic - but this made me laugh this morning...as I watch it snow and blow outside - here in sunny, tropical Flagstaff.
 
 
LOL -- I think that applies to a lot of us on the forum!
Ron Frost
marne1ancient @ gmail.com
910 nine two two 0563

"There is no limit to what a man can do, so long as he does not care a straw who gets credit for it. Charles Montague
Back to Top
nda racer View Drop Down
AMC Addicted
AMC Addicted


Joined: Nov/28/2009
Location: Ohio
Status: Offline
Points: 1730
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nda racer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/27/2011 at 11:47am
Originally posted by Ken_Parkman Ken_Parkman wrote:

It's most likely the filter. Due to the filter direction it will drain if the drain valve in the filter is no good, and unfortunately most are no good. It does not seem to hurt much to have some rod knock on start,

 
Exactly. If the noise goes away once the pressure goes up, it's nothing to worry about IMO.
 
Look around on these forums, there's guys rebuilding their engines and ending up with a big hunk of junk on their hands. So you can spend a few 1000 and take the gamble the job gets done right, it might not end up shreader fodder. make sure you get the "right guy" if you do decide to rebuild it. That may involve buttoning it down to a pallet and shipping it across the country.
 
 
I have a Chebby 350 sitting here, in 94 I pulled the pan when I replaced the wiped cam, had a very sloppy rod I could move up and down on the crank, didn't have a couple 1000 for a rebuild and only paid 65 bux for this mill running in 1990, so I pinned her back up and dropped her in. Daily driven every summer and 100s of street and track passes. With 10w30 you can hear it slapping, 20w50 and some STP super snot you can still hear it from under the car.
 
 
There it is making passes just the other year. This is the second chassis it's been in and over 200,000 miles now, had 138,000 when I bought it.
 
 
 
 
Years ago I knew a guy that would pick up low mileage engines and rebuild them for the sake of making them "fresh" most of them grenaded. So I'm not a big fan of fixing something that isn't broke.
 
Back to Top
69 ambassador 390 View Drop Down
Supporter of TheAMCForum
Supporter of TheAMCForum
Avatar

Joined: Nov/22/2009
Location: Peoria, AZ
Status: Offline
Points: 2967
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 69 ambassador 390 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Feb/27/2011 at 1:30pm
How 'bout just pulling the pan and looking at the bearings.  Polish the crank with crocus cloth in place and then put in new bearings the same size.  You will need to flush the journals with a spray cleaner and then slide in the new bearings.  No big deal if the top end looks good.  Why are you doing the heads at 80,000 miles?  If it sat a year or two the heads may have corrosion on the open valves and seats but if not then there should be nothing wrong with them.
Steve Brown

Algonac, Mi.

69 Ambassador sst 390

84 Grand Wagoneer

69 Cougar XR7

65 Fairlaine 500XL

79 F-350 Super Camper Special



Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <123>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down



This page was generated in 0.156 seconds.
All content of this site Copyright © 2012 TheAMCForum unless otherwise noted, all rights reserved.
PROBLEMS LOGGING IN or REGISTERING:
If you have problems logging in or registering, then please contact a Moderator or